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Apr 26, 2013

D.L.43 Nahuel - possible American tier 5 premium

Hello everyone,

today we are going to have a look at one tank that appears on the WoT forums in regular intervals (quite correctly) as a candidate for a tier 5 premium tank - the Nahuel. When I wrote about the Patagon tank some time ago, I wrote that the Nahuel is basically a Sherman knock-off. This caused some amount of disagreement - and rightfully so, because I was wrong. But let's have a look at this interesting vehicle.






The full name of the vehicle is "Carro de Combate Medio Nahuel D.L.43" and it is one of the first Argentinian armored vehicle attempts. Pre-WW2 Argentina generally wasn't exactly the most industrially developed country in the world, therefore it was capable of producing only generally very simple designs and constructions. It's no wonder that the army was - by the time WW2 broke out - equipped only with foreign made vehicles. By that time, the army sought to purchase the French, British or even Czech vehicles to arm itself, but as the war came closer, no tanks were available to buy, since all the armies tried to arm themselves at all costs. Some serious negotiations took place between Argentina and Czechoslovakia over the purchase of the LT-38 light tanks, but before any agreement could be reached, Czechoslovakia was already occupied and produced tanks exclusively for the Germans.
Other attempts to acquire modern technology were practically thwarted by Americans, who suspected Argentina of nazi sympathies and were not interested in strengtening the Axis forces any further - that's why they basically blocked any Argentinian attempts to buy armor abroad.

This import quasiban led to the Argentinian decision to actually develop their own medium tank. The decision took place in 1942 (a committee to ovesee the development was estabilished) and in 1943, the actual project was accepted. Lt.Col. Baisi was charged with its proper development. This man would later become celebrated as the "father of the Argentinian armored corps" and handled the development well.

The project itself was definitely inspired by the M4 Sherman design, but the similiarity was only superficial - the "guts" of the vehicle were completely different. The design work went really fast, even for 40's standards: a wooden mockup was ready in 45 days and the first prototype saw the light of day in only 2 months. The project was named "Nahuel". Apparently, it's supposed to mean "Tiger" in the language of Argentinian natives (Indians), but after looking for a while, I discovered that there can be an alternative translation as "Jaguar". Indeed, some sources translate it as "Jaguar", but that's not really important.

The hull of the Nahuel was welded from armored plates. The turret was cast - a technology which did cause the Argentinians some trouble, but in the end, they managed to make it. The armament was a 75mm Krupp howitzer.

The first prototype trials - at first the hull was tested without the turret attached - ended well, the vehicle performed admirably. The vehicle was presented to public during a 1943 coup anniversary military parade on 4.6.1944 in Buenos Aires - first 10 Nahuels were ready by then. In the end, a total of 16 vehicles were produced in the Arsenal Esteban de Luca in Buenos Aires between 1943 and 1944. By 1944 however, Argentina officially "switched sides" and became an ally of the USA. As a result, American surplus Shermans were imported en-masse and there was no need to produce more Nahuels (especially since the late model Shermans were superior in most respects).

In the end, the Nahuel served until 1962, when the last one was decommissioned. Most were scrapped, some served as training targets and sadly not a single vehicle survived until now.




Parameters

Weight: 35 tons
Engine: 500hp Lorraine Dietrich 12E.B.
Maximum speed: 40 km/h
Armor: 25 to 80mm
Armament: Krupp model 1909 field gun (75mm L/30) with the ROF of 10 shots per minute, according to some sources these guns were replaced after the war by Bofors 75mm L/40 guns, 1x 50cal MG, 3x7.62mm MG's

In World of Tanks

Since the probability of introduction of some South American tree is very, very low, this vehicle would make a nice tier 5 American premium medium tank. Its mobility is decent and while the gun is inferior to the Sherman, it could still work. Plus, I think I recall correctly that some developer said at some point that Nahuel might appear. In any case, it's a nice piece of South-American engineering and it shouldn't be forgotten.

Source
http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/title/ARG-Nahuel/t/34483

34 comments:

  1. Could you give me details about how would be the gun specs in the game?

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    1. Very bad. I tried to find some data on it - keep in mind that it's not primarily a tank gun, it's a field howitzer from 1909. I don't have any info of how the AP ammo performed on it (if it existed at all), but judging from the shell weight and velocities, we are looking at something like 75 pen, 110 dam, 0,5 acc, 10 ROF (even though that could be buffed to reach the desired DPM).

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  2. Tier 5 reward tank for 10 000 battles played...if WG would ever implement such a "feature"

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  3. The alleged upgraded gun should be usable- it's got the same caliber as the Sherman's stock gun and a slightly longer barrel- roughly 100 pene is expected. -Platypusbill

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    1. Even the original would be fine. This vehicle has 35 tons, but also 500hp engine, that would make it more maneuverable than an elite T5 Sherman. Has to compensate it somewhere.

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  4. Why would south american natives have an own word for "Tiger"? There are no tigers in America.

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    1. Yes, that idea was why I looked for alternative translations in the first place.

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    2. soy de Argentina, no hay tigres en mi paĆ­s, pero si hay jaguares y pumas, Nahuel es una palabra de una tribu que tiene su propio idioma.

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    3. Perhaps the heavy german influence in argentina brought the word over,

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  5. Can't reply to earlier comments directly on my phone- but wouldn't a 75mm derpgun be pretty sad for a tier V? -Platypusbill

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    1. Depends whether AP ammo would be available or not. As I wrote earlier, I think something around 75 pen is possible, which wouldn't be that bad.

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  6. for those who understand spanish, i recommend this link which has some info on what the gun..

    http://www.zonamilitar.com.ar/foros/threads/reflexiones-sobre-nuestra-artiller%C3%ADa-hist%C3%B3rica.27257/page-2#post-1197203

    quick summary: there's a quick note on the fact that the EA (Ejercito Argentino, Argentinian Army in spanish) hasn't exact info on what the 1909 gun is.. the 1905 gun which they show there point to a possible prototype to which the 1909 gun, but for all we know it could be also a 1909 gun, just entered service in 1905.. and all this leads to the model 1903 L/70 Krupp Gun. There's also mention of a upgrade that was done post WWI, that made them very similar to the 75mm Bofors, but there's no data about how many or when those where made...

    P.S: good show on the patagon article, coming from somebody who lives in comodoro rivadavia and saw/knows where they were assembled

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  7. I also forgot to mention that the 75mm Krupp was dropped from being used as artillery in the mid 30's... with only being used the 88mm Krupp guns in the Marine Corps (that i think could also be the reason why they decided to use it, having it in storage...)

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  8. 75mm penetration is just inexcusably bad, it would bounce off medium tank fronts and KV-1 sides at least half the time, and that's not even accounting for range or suboptimal angles. The Nahuel needs the L/40 gun or artificially high performance with the shorty, or it's going to fail miserably. -Platypusbill

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  9. Expect ACA members whining about how bad the tank is in WOT compared to what it was in "reality".

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  10. (quote)

    The project was named "Nahuel". Apparently, it's supposed to mean "Tiger" in the language of Argentinian natives (Indians), but after looking for a while, I discovered that there can be an alternative translation as "Jaguar". Indeed, some sources translate it as "Jaguar", but that's not really important.

    (end quote)

    There are no Tigers in South America, so it's unlikely that Argentinian natives had a word for "Tiger". So it must be "Jaguar" (the jaguar lives in South America).
    M4R4Z

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    1. Not to mention that said big cat had, predicatably enough like with all major carnivores around the world, a metric buttload of symbolism associated with it in well-nigh all pre-Columbian cultures.

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    2. There is no tiger in europe, especially in germany too...

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    3. =_=
      Not sure if trolling or just really stupid.

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  11. I don't know, the tank seems so amazingly average in most characteristics that there would be little point to purchasing it, especially with the heavily armored T14 serving as a gold round (HEAT? Can't remember)/ HE firing machine already.


    It doesn't even have the benefit of heavy armor to make the puny gun tolerable.

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  12. IIRC devs said no to Nahuel in Q&A, simply because of it's name =) In Russian it's sounds... lets say 'bad'.

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    1. ŠŠ°Ń…ŃƒŠ¹ŠµŠ»ŃŒ :D

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    2. Thanks, this actually made me laugh :)

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    3. Google Translate didn't do it for me- care to elaborate?

      -Platypusbill

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    4. "Nahuel" is "ŠŠ°Ń…ŃƒŃŠ»ŃŒ" in russian, very similar to "ŠŠ°Ń…ŃƒŠ¹", what can be translated as "fuck" ("ŠŠ°Ń…ŃƒŠ¹" in russian language have too many meanings, so it is difficult to correctly translate it).

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    5. XуŠ¹ is Russian for dick. ŠŠ°Ń…ŃƒŠ¹ is mostly used in 2 ways - to send someone ŠŠ°Ń…ŃƒŠ¹, means "go fuck yourself", another way it's used is instead of the word "why", a close English alternative would be "why the fuck should I do it ?" instead of just "why", although the word alone isn't really used the same way as the English "fuck", Russians have the word "Š±Š»ŠµŠ³ŃŒ" for that. Pardon my language :)

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  13. Link for a overlord response...

    http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4613/20130320194423.png

    The "big cat" It's called "Puma"

    Check this pic

    http://www.militariarg.com/uploads/4/2/2/1/4221080/8196012.jpg?664

    And for the cat lovers is this little cat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cougar

    Check my tread in the NA forums about the "Nahuel"

    http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/78903-nahuel-medium-tank-nahuel-dl-43-some-overlord-info/page__hl__%20nahuel#top

    Montykoro NA
    (Yes im from ACA :))

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  14. I'm from Argentina. I think the nation could be included in the game, maybe not a full tech tree, but maybe like the type 59 in the first time, it alone. Argentina have tanks for 3 or 4 premiums

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    1. Length 6,22m, Width 2.33m, Height 2.95m, Autonomy 250 Km.
      5 crew members in the first version and 4 in the a version with the 2 frontal machine guns annulled

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  15. IMO the Nahuel would work best as a tier 4(OK armor, OK gun, and OK mobility at that tier) and be given an Argentine crew since it was an Argentine tank(much like how the Type 59 was suppose to be before the Chinese tree arrived).

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  16. Thanks for reproducing my photos of the Nahuel...originally published in an article on the Italian magazine "Esseciti e Armi' of Feb, 1972...By the way, The main armament was not a "Krupp howitzer", but rather a Krupp 75mm L.30 mod. 1909 field gun, which had been replaced as the standard equipment of field artillery tregiments of the aArgentine Army with the Bofors 75 mm L.40 mod.,1935..
    The ten vehicles publicly shown on 9 July 1944 carried a secondary armament of 1 x 12,7 mm(.50cal.) Browning, plus three Madsen Mod. 1926 7,65 mm l.m.g. in the huill.
    Cheers!
    GvR

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  17. I think the Nahuel should be a tier 4. It lacks the penetration for a tier 5. It has a very tall profile. A tier 4 premiun in the American branch.
    By the way in XIX Argentina, jaguars were offen called "tigres" (tigers) by criollos and gauchos. Nahuel can be traslated as jaguar in mapudungun as tiger was a synonim of jaguar (Yaguarete also). Anyway the mapundungun was heavily influenced by the spanish.

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