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May 15, 2013

Foreign Shermans

Author: Priory_of_Sion

In this article I will be looking at the modified Sherman Tanks of Great Britain, Canada, Israel, Yugoslavia, and other nations. Don't worry about other American versions right now.

Now you should all know the famous British version of the M4, the Firefly, or more officially the Cruiser Sherman VC. Fitted with the 17 pounder(pdr for short) the Firefly brought to the Sherman firepower that could destroy almost anything it came up against. The need for the Firefly arose due to the slow production of the British Challenger, so the Brits decided to cram the 17 pdr into the Sherman's turret that originally mounted the 75 mm gun. The M4's large turret ring and the 17 pdr's heavy but small breech made the conversion possible. Muzzle breaks, an enhanced recoil mechanism, and a new depression/elevation mechanism(-5 degrees to + 20 degrees--Darn those Brits for making the Sherman uncomfortable).

Here are some Kiwis in front of thier Firefly which is disguised as a regular Sherman.


The Firefly was successful when it was introduced in 1944 in France. The 17 pder was more than capable of destroying Panthers, Tigers, and even a Tiger II if the Firefly loaded an APDS round(I don't recall any Firefly vs. Tiger II engagements though).

Another interesting tidbit about the British and their Shermans is that the method of ammo storage practiced by the British was very poor and led to increase of fires when hit. The Americans solved their ammo storage problems very quickly, but not the poor Brits.


The Canadians licensed the M4A1 to create the Grizzly. The Grizzly only differed from the M4A1 by having slightly thicker armor and the unique track design but it was the AA version of the Grizzly that is noteworthy(there was a Grizzly Firefly though). The Skink used a modified turret that had 4 20 mm Polsten autocannons. The range of fire of these guns goes from -5 degrees to +80 degrees. A single Skink was deployed with the Canadian forces in 1945, by that time the Luftwaffe didn't really have a whole lot left so the Skink found a new job of cleaning out German soldiers from defensive positions.



In 1948 the Israelis got their first Shermans in 1948 by scrapping together some pieces from some British and Italian military dumps. The first couple Israeli Shermans proved quite capable versus their Egyptian opponents and as the Israelis received more Shermans from the British and the Americans they decided it was time to give the Sherman some firepower. Before the Israelis had a variety of 75 mm, 76 mm(the 76 mm armed Shermans were kept in service as the M-1), and 105 mm guns; the Israelis even used pre-WWI Krupp 75 mm field guns due to lack of armament. The first M-50 Super Shermans(or Ishermans---The IDF called it the M-50 officially) of Israel appeared in 1956 armed with the French 75 mm gun that was mounted on the AMX-13. The turret needed a new mantlet and a larger/heavier turret bustle in the back. Improved suspension was also added onto the Super Sherman. This new gun gave the Sherman a very reliable weapon that could knock out the Egyptian T-34/85s and Churchills with ease.



 Between 1956 and 1967 the Israelis developed the most powerful Sherman variant, the M-51 Super Sherman. The M-51 mounted a very powerful French 105 mm gun (same basic weapon as on the AMX 30, but shortened) which could penetrate upwards of ~360 mm of armor using HEAT rounds. In 1967 and even in 1973 the Super Shermans proved very valuable and the M-51 proved that it could knock out the latest Soviet MBTs such as the T-55 and the T-62. The Centurions, M60s, and the upcoming Merkevas meant the Sherman was done in Israel.

Bringing a new meaning of carrying a big stick.


Israel exported some of the Super Shermans to Chile. This gave the Chilean Army the most dangerous tank in South America at the time. Some of these Super Shermans had their 105 mm guns removed in favor of a new high velocity 60 mm cannon, the new tank is called the M-60.


My new desktop background.

Egypt had a few Shermans of their own. The Egyptian used French supplied Shermans that have had the original turret removed in favor of the FL10 turret used on the AMX-13. 


The Yugoslavians also got their hands onto the Sherman. The M-634 was a project using the V-2 engine from the T-34 in the Sherman, the new engine have the Sherman some extra horsepower and speed. 


Later the M-634 evolved into the SO-122 which changed the gun from a 75 mm gun to the Soviet A-19 122 mm gun.  The comfortability of the SO-122 is minimal, IIRC it has a whopping -2 degrees of depression.

"and boom goes the dynamite"

Shermans continued to see service with nations up until the 1990s. They have seen service in Latin America, the Balkans  the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, and Central Africa. The only continent to not see Shermans in combat is Antarctica(the least comfortable continent in my opinion).


Sources:
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/
Sherman: History of the American Medium Tank by Hunnicutt
Armour of the Middle East Wars 1948-1973 by Zaloga
http://forum.valka.cz


56 comments:

  1. Excellent summary.

    I hope we see the 122mm equipped Shermans eventually.

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    Replies
    1. Didn't the Uralmash give you a hint of how crippling 2 degrees of Comfort can be? -Platypusbill

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    2. 1. I haven't played the Uralmash yet.
      2. This has a turret, and definitely won't be higher than tier 7 if it shows up.

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    3. <- SU-101 Player

      - Its not comfortable at all.

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    4. More info on SO 122 From Tank.net
      http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=36519

      "Yugoslavia, 1961, gun is 122mm A-19 but modified with vertical sliding breachblock.
      520HP V-2R engine. No.19 radio station instead of SCR-528
      33.5t.
      Max speed changed from 42km/h to 50km/h. Fuel consummation lowered from 400 to 211l per 100km.Maneuverability on difficult terrain was somewhat reduced.

      Gunsight was modified TSh-15 from SU-100.
      In tests during 1962. gun showed lower penetration then 100mm D-10S and vehicle was reclassified from anti-tank vehicle to infantry support one, but it was not suitable for that role due the inability to use indirect fire (elevation was only +10/-2deg).
      In 1966. development was officially stopped and prototype scrapped. "

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    5. In game stats for A-19 (first gun on SU-8)


      122 mm Howitzer A-19

      Damage(НР) 465/390

      Penetration(mm) 65/217

      Rate of Fire (rounds/min) 4.8

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    6. The D-25T is the Tank Gun version of the A-19 so I'd expect those stats for the SO-122 if it is a Medium Tank or a TD.

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    7. in game the biggest difference between A-19 and D-25T is the AP

      SO-122 was originally intended as anti-tank vehicle but was later reclassified to infantry support due to the lack of penetration (lack of HEAT ammo in YU)

      so it will probably be a TD



      in any case, I can not wait to play it as well as the other Yugo creations *plug* *plug*

      http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/188288-jugoslovensko-stablo-jugodrvo/

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  2. Yeah.. SO122 looks awkward xD

    We always loved it bigger lol

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  3. How mutch does that 60mm gun penetrates?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 175-200 mm would be my GUESS knowing it comes from the late 1970s Israel and it would be firing extremely fast and high quality rounds.

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    2. More. About a year ago I did look for the hard data on that. While I haven't found anything, I remember finding some rough calculations, that would put the penetration in 300+ ranges.

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  4. That Super Sherman (the "SS"? That sounds rather awkward :P) turret looks awesome, and the mantlet looks ratger sturdy- any info on turret armour? -Platypusbill

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    Replies
    1. Isherman might work better than the SS.

      I'm pretty sure the armor wasn't that much more than the 76 mm armed Shermans, but in all likelihood it was better protected. It should be ~200 mm of effective armor, I don't have any sources at the moment to comfirm/deny that though.

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    2. ALL the Israeli Shermans right until the end had the same amount of armor as the original Shermans. No uparmoring whatsoever! The "big gun" Sherman had it even more complicated, because even the shortened breech of the CN gun had to be fitted behind a very large mantlet, which menas the "hole" behind the mantlet armor (where the turret armor and mantlet armor didn't cover each other) was very big. In 1967 terms, the Sherman tank was pure paper.

      Delete
  5. Well obviously we need to fix matters. Someone hire a cargo ship, we need to land a couple Sherman on Antarctica to fight the Penguin menace.

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    Replies
    1. Someone landed something there at one point, but I can't figure out what chassis this is:

      http://kevinraber.com/2012/09/21/tanks-in-antarctica/

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    2. M2A2 probably (its back to the left, front to the right on that photo) - http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/tanks-light/m2-light-tank/m2a2/m2a2-light-tank-03.png

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    3. Maybe, but those are rather tracked "tractors", used to tow stuff in the snow and ice, than actual tanks.

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    4. I found more references to them being turret-less M2A2's from the 1946 expedition, including a short film clip of one running around on modified treads. There should be 3 of them there plus a T3 wreck nearby.

      Still no Shermans, though...

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    5. They are most likely tanks that had their turrets and excess baggage removed to be used as tractors. Likely chosen for their light weight, air cooled engines and ease of maintenance.

      I don't recall seeing them in older pictures (NGM Horder. I collect the maps) but I can try digging. They would likely be some sort of left overs from an expedition.

      And that it what they are from. But I am not sure which expedition. Says 1940. But I can check if you want me to dig more.
      http://www.politicalstew.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=118959

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    6. FOUND IT
      "Part I: A Guide for Management, Part II: Description of the Cultural Resources and Recommendations: East Base Historic Monument, Stonington Island/Antarctic Peninsula"

      SOURCE:: Find: M2A2
      http://archive.org/stream/partiguideforman00spud/partiguideforman00spud_djvu.txt

      The Tracked Vehicles

      The two tracked vehicles dominate the dumps. Both lie on their sides, suggesting that
      they had been parked on a snow or ice field that has subsequently melted. The rock
      piles under the vehicles would have prevented the vehicles being placed in their current
      positions under their own power. This area was originally located at the base of the ice
      ramp that connected Stonington Island to the mainland glacier.

      An army light artillery tractor T3E4, brought by the USAS, lies on its side on the
      southeast quadrant of the dump. Lipps referred to use of the tractor to move supplies
      around the base. It proved only marginally effective. The tractor may have been built
      by Caterpillar. It has a standard "Hercules 6 engine" (stamped on the engine block),
      which had six cylinders and was powered with gasoline. A "Champion" spark plug
      remains visible, as does a "Willard" battery. The tractor has 8-inch treads, which were
      too narrow for use in snow.

      Nearby are the remains of a bamboo and chicken-wire contraption used as a security
      net for the tractor driver, in case the tractor should plunge into a crevasse. Lipps
      reported that the device was never needed, so its success was not tested.

      An Army light tank M2A2 sits in the southwest quadrant of the dump. The tank was
      also brought by the USAS. It, too, was of minimal utility in hauling supplies. Lipps and
      Bertrand both mentioned the use of these army vehicles by the expedition. The tank
      gun turret is missing and probably was never shipped to the Antarctic. The tank has
      an eight-cylinder, air-cooled engine. An engine part reads "Cuno Engineering Corp.,
      Meriden, Conn., U.S.A." in raised letters. The treads measure 8 3 /4 inches.
      ========================


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    7. The expedition in question was the 1939–1941 — United States Antarctic Service Expedition (USAS)– led by Richard Evelyn Byrd. And this is the famous one where he brought the Snow Cruiser. Nice looking beast that failed on the ice. The M2A2's lasted tell 46 or 48 then they went the way of the Dodo.

      Sorry for triple post.

      NEMO.

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    8. http://www.com-central.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=13958&view=next

      http://www.realmilitaryvideos.com/videos/antarctic-expedition-the-controversial-1946-mission-to-antarctica/

      1.46 SnowCruiser
      1.48 M2A2 having fun in the snow

      However I don't know of more tanks in Antarctica. There were many many other tracked vehicles. But not on more tanks/converted tanks. I suppose I should say I am a big fan of the 1900 through 1970 Antarctic - Artic expeditions. I have most of the NGM Issues on it. Maps as well.

      NEMO

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    9. There was also a T55 Ontos at the McMurdo station in 1956. Later it was sent back to the US, bought by a collector and finally traded in for a Stuart. Most likely, it ended up being scraped.
      -NewAround

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    10. I saw the note on the T55 Ontos but considered it a SPG and not a tank, respectfully. Although the wiki article for whatever reason uses both to describe it... From the video you can see tractors and APCs.

      NEMO.

      Delete
  6. > The M-51 mounted a very powerful French smooth-bore 105 mm

    Smoothbore? Isnt it just shorter version of AMX 30 gun?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Woops, will fix. It was a rifled gun.

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    2. The AMX 30's 105 mm Modèle F1 gun was a smoothbore

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    3. You have a source for the smoothbore? I assumed it was when I wrote it but after a minute or two of looking around I can safely say it was rifled.

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/AMX-30_gun_img_2354.jpg

      I believe the top gun(CN 105 mm) on the Bat Chat 25t is the same weapon as well.

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    4. The F1 is a rifled gun. The main projectile it fires (OOC 105 F1, otherwise known as Obus.G) is a HEAT round unlike any other. It is mounted in a ball bearing case which spins at a rate determined by the rifling of the gun, while the shaped charge itself remains relatively static. This allows it to achieve a greater degree of accuracy than fin-stabilised rounds without impairing its armour-piercing performance.

      More info: Google R.M. Ogorkiewicz, "AFV Weapons Profile 63, AMX-30 Battle Tank". There's a full scan on Scribd.

      Delete
  7. That mutant Sherman/AMX-13 is disgusting. I want one. What do you think? Tier 7 premium?

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    Replies
    1. I'd be much more interested in that Super Sherman. :)

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    2. I too would like a M-51 Super Sherman despite the lack of armour. I wonder if that could be upgraded with better suspension to hold more armour. IE more modern armour.

      A M3 Super Lee with uprated gun (90-105mm (smoothbore?)) and engine and suspension might be more fun through.

      NEMO.

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  8. Quad 20 mms with -5 degrees of gun depression? Come oooooon, tier 5 PzI C!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hey, hey, I killed Churchills and StugIIIs in that little beast. Apparently, people don't know how thin roof armor really is...

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  9. Ugandan M4A1(76)W M1 Sherman
    Esoteric Armour
    http://esotericarmour.blogspot.ca/search?updated-max=2011-10-06T23:26:00%2B01:00&max-results=4&start=12&by-date=false

    Never seen Sherman that far into Africa... They look like they took a hard left.

    ReplyDelete
  10. If they release the Super Sherman as a prem I will call it SS, make a custom black skin with red-white flag featuring a swastika. And then post it on /pol/. Should be fun to watch the shitstorm.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Just make sure you crews name all end with -stein for kicks.

      Delete
  11. The ones i would be particularly interested in seeing in game (as premium tanks of course) would be the M-51 Super Sherman, cause that 105mm gun would pack just a horrendous punch on a Sherman tank. It'd fit in well at teir 7, me thinks. And i would also like to see that SO-122, as a Russian premium tank. Sure, it has -2 degrees of gun depression....which is just...bad. But if you play it well, and situationally, that could be a hell of a tank to surprise people with. I hope WG considers adding a few Sherman premium versions...it'd be interesting to see. If not, well, life goes on.

    ~SgtShidner59

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Both tanks have a chance to appear in game as part of Euro tree and Israeli tree...

      Delete
  12. The M51 Super Sherman uses a 105mm CN-105-F1 tank gun. Its designation is almost similar to the 105 mm CN 105/57 on the Bat Chatillon 25 t. If this is the same gun, then its regular damage and penetration would be 390/259 respectively. Wow. Wonder if the M51 had the autoloader as well?

    If the French tree needs a tier 8 premium medium tank, the M51 is definitely the winner. Americans already have the SS as their tier 8 premium, so I don't see why it won't be made French.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Isreaeli modification of US made Shermans mounting French gun...

      If M51 gun is really bit shorter than AMX-30/BatChat then having 220/300/53 penetrations and 360/360/450 damages for AP/HEAT/HE could do the trick. Assuming M51 got some engine upgrade, it could make it overtiered and overgunned E8... sort of

      -Panocek

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    2. M51 can shoot only HEAT and HE AFAIK.

      Delete
  13. xCaptainObviousxMay 16, 2013, 7:49:00 AM

    Didn't someone ask about the Supersherman in the Q&A recently? With a high-pen 105 mm gun it would make a good t7 or 8 premium (depending on chosen stats, 160 mm pen for t7 or 198 for t8?)

    ReplyDelete
  14. Just a few tidbits: Isherman is not a designation of all the Israeli Shermans I believe. Just some. The Yugoslavian SO-122 means something like "Samohodno orudije" - it was classified as an SPG. Fireflies were not only the Shermans VC, there were also Shermans IIC Fireflies, obviously converted from Sherman II's (the "C" letter means the 17pdr). Whether there were any Shermans IC I cannot remember.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't think the Isherman was ever a designation, why I used the M-1, M-50, and M-51 designations.

      If I left anything out you can always edit the posts.

      Delete
    2. SO-122 = Samohodno Oruđe 122mm


      Samohodno Oruđe literally means "self-walking weapon"


      This designation was used for both "TDs" and "SP-artys"

      Delete
    3. Brice: I'd never edit someone else's post, mate.
      Yugo: Yep, I know. Czechs have the same terminology, as do Russians and Bulgarians. Polish have it different, funnily enough.

      Delete
  15. I'm curious about this bit piece: "Another interesting tidbit about the British and their Shermans is that the method of ammo storage practiced by the British was very poor and led to increase of fires when hit." Any more information on what the issue was or is there a source for more reading? Thanks in advance.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Just a funny bit of info for you all:

    The yugo m4 (a3 version) was used when they made the movie kellys heroes , and they were fitted with a 76mm gun. Oddball says 76mm in the film eventhough i think it was 75mm during the war.

    I have a pic from a plate of those m4's.

    http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/yu.htm

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  17. Oh i see i messed up as it was not about american versions. Anyhoo. Enjoy

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  18. This is crazy... now the Sherman is incredibly OP.

    My goodness damn variant and foreign shermans

    ReplyDelete
  19. the M-51 gun is in fact the M-57 gun. A 44 calibers 105mm used on the AMX13 90 firing the same warheads than the CN-57-105 and later variants:
    OCC-105-F1 OCC for Obus Charge Creuse (HEAT) the famous Obus G with its stabilisator allowing to be deadly even if it's fired from a RIFLED gun (that's for the ignorant who saif the CN-57 was a smoothbore.)
    OE-105-F1 OE for Obus Explosif (HE)
    OFL-105-G1 OFL for Obus Flèche (APFSDS) with Tungsten rod coming later with a modification fo the muzzle brake.
    OFI-105-F1 smoke shells but sadly no smoke shells in WoT.

    The OCC can pass trough 360mm of armor steel at any range until 1800m (practical range) and the OFL around 280/310mm @1000m with a practical range about 2km.

    In terms of WoT performances that could be 200mm for 390dmg (APCR) (sigh) / 330mm for 390 dmg (HEAT/ 53mm for 480dmg (HE).

    T8 premium? I don't think so :p

    ReplyDelete

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