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May 31, 2013

0.8.6 Jpz E-100 camouflage effect

Source: http://world-of-ru.livejournal.com/2021014.html
Author: newsash

This is an interesting post by Russian player, testing the Jagdpanzer E-100 8.6 camo - with and without bush. The spotting vehicle is a FV4202 with 100 percent crew, without binoculars or coated optics, but with radioman's viewrange perk. The bush mentioned in the table is on Malinovka, like this:


And the result? Here is the distance in meters, on which the Jpz E-100 gets spotted.... (notice my elite photoshop skill, which I used to insert the text so nicely...)


Surprisingly, the crew camo skill has very little effect, this has been tested by the player specifically. Contrary to which, the new camo net has more significant reduction impact, along with visual camo.

57 comments:

  1. yeah, camo net is a bit TOO effective now...

    especially since it gives a fixed bonus, and even when shooting this bonus wont change...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you shoot it's effect "goes away" and you'll have to wait for it a few seconds to activate again, if I'm not mistaken!

      Delete
    2. You are note mistaken.

      Delete
    3. Your grammar is naught good.

      Delete
    4. i'm pretty sure the camo net only gets removed when moving, not when shooting. But since in 8.5 it only gave a percentage, once you shot you lost a lot of its camo value.

      But since now it's a fixed value, the camonet gives the same bonus when shooting...

      Delete
    5. whining puppies will fucking always be whining puppies, seriously grow some balls.
      Jadpze100 fires so fucking slowly that ANY medium of its tier or even tier 8 and 9 can kill it fairly easy, yes u take 1 shell and are below 50 % hp but u get a 2200 hp killmail

      Delete
    6. You need to add BIA into the mix as well

      Delete
  2. Looks like ventilation has lost ist influence on the camovalue...
    -Mppol

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. as the SS said, the camo skill has very little effect to the overall camouflage of the tank.. so does the ventilation because it influence only camo skill

      btw, what now happens with ELC I wonder.. with all of that it won't be spotted from 5 meters if it's in the bush or what? xD

      Delete
  3. "Surprisingly, the crew camo skill has very little effect, this has been tested by the player specifically."

    Surprisingly? It's been already confirmed many times by Russian devs that mechanics for camo skill won't change, i.e. benefit for vehicles with negligible base camo value is, well, negligible.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Indeed. The test is done with a vehicle that has, according to tests done by yet other Russian players, 3% view range reduction while sitting still and ~.5% while moving and firing.

      Lets say that 100% crew camo doubles that. Woop de doo, doubling a crappy stat is helpful, but only so far as it makes it slightly less crap in comparison to undoubled.
      This is "realistic", as well, if people want to argue that; a crew operating a vehicle can only take so many steps to hide said vehicle when it's the size of a small house.

      Delete
    2. the point is just a crappy cammo net has more cammo value than the skill on 6 crew members.

      Delete
    3. A camo net blends the tank in with its surroundings, breaking its silhouette up and making it harder to identify it as a tank. Camo paint does much the same, but in addition masks any metal so that light striking it both reflects less and reflects at a color more likely to appear in nature.

      A crew of six working their hardest does...what? The commander and radioman might work together to coordinate with other tanks to outright avoid enemy lines of sight, and the driver could avoid disturbing vegetation and revving the engine more than necessary. The gunner could conceivably only fire when enemy tanks do so that they're less likely to see his muzzle flash because of the brightness of their own.

      All of this is only going to have a slight effect on your barn-sized vehicle's visibility, and only in certain situations (which are in turn reliant on vehicle size; much easier to avoid sight in a smaller/lower-slung vehicle). Working with the limitations of pattern recognition and resolution at range inherent in the human brain and eyes as camouflage does is going to have a massive effect in comparison.

      So yes, a "crappy camo net" would indeed have far more effect than any efforts that the crew operating the vehicle could muster.

      Delete
    4. They should try the opposite tank, a T71 or T-50 2 or something with has 20% camo instead.

      Delete
  4. Not surprising at all, the camo skill is still multiplicative and not additive like the new camo net. Basically the skill is still practically useless for vehicles with very low base camo.

    ReplyDelete
  5. AANNNNDDDDDDDDD..... The cake is a lie!
    WG said they will make duoble bushes tactics not working anymore, but I swear that I just saw a Pershing go fully stealth by hiding behind two bushes.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There is a bug on testserver - enemy tanks can ram into you and sometimes you still cannot see them until someone else will spot them.

      Delete
    2. It's not a bug, it's working as intended.

      Delete
  6. Are there similar tests with scouts like amx13 90 and wz-132?

    ReplyDelete
  7. Now i wonder how stealthy my Type 59 will be just with some cammo skill and paint...

    ReplyDelete
  8. So ventilation do a nothing at all. What exactly gives ventilation? Nothing?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. it gives fresh air

      Delete
    2. Ventilation gives nothing to everything.

      Delete
  9. This is just a middle finger to all the players who have been using the camo skill so far.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well not really, it's just that cammo skill improves the vehicle cammo. If your tank had 0 cammo to start with, the skill won't do any good. But if your tank had a high cammo value, and you use cammo skill, the overall cammo will be much greater.

      It's like:
      0(vehicle cammo) * 100 (cammo crew skill) + 50 (cammo net) + 50 (cammo paint) = 100 Now this would be for the JgE100.
      But for a stealthy tank it might be:
      1(vehicle cammo) * 100 (cammo crew skill) + 50 (cammo net) + 50 (cammo paint) = 200.

      So the crew will influence the cammo value but only for tanks that have some...default cammo.

      Someone correct me if i'm wrong...

      Delete
    2. That's the way I saw it explained. I wish I could remember where now.

      Camo skill had no real effect on the E-100 because it's the one that still multiplies, and it's multiplying a really low number. The static adds from the camo pattern and net are more noticeable.

      Had the test target been something with an actual camo value to start with, like the IS-7, then the camo skill would have had some effect.

      Delete
    3. Better try something like StuG, Marder or SU-100, then IS-7. Then crew skill should have really strong effect. It is well known truth, that camo skill in huge tanks is useless cause it multiplies very small number.

      Delete
  10. I call this bad update to... if you are perfectly behind bushes you should not get spotted before 50m, period. This is just bad that now I have to relearn the whole spotting system for each and every tank! I've been learning spotting places, places to ambush for 20k matches now, and now I get scrapped? Not nice.

    Also getting spotted inside a bush from 250+? Yeah JPZ has bad camo, but atleast it COULD hide behind bush perfectly before shooting.

    Instead of devaluating bushes for super hidden TDs, they devalueted it for all... Making EVERY tank class worse in hiding bushes. There will be more random WTF I'm spotted moments after the update... Just bad bad thing.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So your favorite bush isn't working anymore? What a shame...

      Delete
    2. Nowadays most people shave their bush anyways... So I don't think we'll notice much of a difference of how fast they are spotted.

      I am certainly thinking of growing my bush back, just for the camo value!

      Delete
  11. The biggest bullshit is IMO that the CamoNet gives more camo then a bush itself.
    This must be because a plastic net is able to imitate a bush better then the bush itself......oh wait!?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Where the heck did you get that? The JgE-100 gets spotted at 345 meters when using only a bush, and at 363 meters when using only a camo net. Pretty sure this means the bush is better :\

      Delete
    2. Some people just want to hate and throw shit at wargaming... They don't care about real number...they just start complaining... "The biggest bullshit is IMO th...."

      Delete
    3. But they are sometimes right, you know.

      Delete
    4. Maybe it's time to learn more about camo nets?

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    5. So basically you want a completely invisible TD, obviously no there will be a little more skill involved in placement and ensuring you don't just sit there and fire, being invisible. now you will have to find cover fire and move. ...

      Delete
  12. from update to update this game sucks more and more...

    World of Moron Programmers and game producers... lol
    I'd wish my 150eu spend would go to better games.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Awwww, so better armor, nerfed ammo, decent arty means a bad update for you? really? REALLY?

      Delete
    2. If you think the updates are working as you've hoped they would, you are gonna have a bad time.

      Delete
    3. TEST server. Hint: notice the "Test" in Test server...

      Delete
    4. Hint: it will be even worse when it goes live.

      Delete
    5. Why are you wasting your time here when you can actually forecast the outcome of game developement with weeks of anticipation? Maybe you could even solve unsolved crimes and shit.

      Delete
  13. Cammo works on test 1 bad, there is alot of bugs, like invicible tanks. So its to early talk about ammo for now, they will fis in test 2.

    ReplyDelete
  14. More interesting would be some camo data when this TD is shooting, with camo, bush and without.

    Mle48 and Foch once had great camo while shooting. They were spotted, while shooting, in open area at around 390m. You simply had to keep this distance to stay invisible. Well, WG changed this without mentioning (maybe because i had average damage over 3k with this thing).

    ReplyDelete
  15. Now my Pz38H735f will be even more ninja

    ReplyDelete
  16. http://forum.worldoftanks.ru/index.php?/topic/858518-%d0%bc%d0%b0%d1%81%d0%ba%d0%b8%d1%80%d0%be%d0%b2%d0%ba%d0%b0/page__st__20
    Here is another test with Obj 268
    i will be short from 2 test td:
    - camo (premmium) adds 15m for both tds.
    - bush adds 76 m.
    - cammo net adds 57-58 m.
    - cammo skills basicaly didnt give eny bonus on big tanks, but for example like obj 268 working like cammo net (again adds 57-58m for invicibility).

    ReplyDelete
  17. Can someone try this with an ELC AMX?

    I want to see how often they have to get within 50 meters XD

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. T50-2 with cammo net +skills 100% was spoted behind double bush from about 150 m. i played Redshire after shot tds on hill was spoted with cammo net and skills from about +250m, now in 8.5 its not posibile to spot them at the same position.

      Delete
  18. Reducing the cammo from bushes and other foliage was one of the TOP 5 dumbest ideas WG ever came with...Shortly to say bushes and hiding behind them now counts for shit because you are spotted immediately no matter what tank you are in...i was driving my Ob704 which is pretty stealthy TD and can't remember now but i think i have some cammo skill on my crew and i was being constantly spotted on bloody Prokhorovka behind 2-3 bushes and if you fire your gun you are spotted from universe...TOTAL BULLSHIT...they wanted to avoid totally invisible TDs...well let me tell you a secret...FUCKING TDs were supposed to be invisible and it's not my bloody fault that dumb noobies are crying on forums....BOOOO TD is shooting me and i can't see him...knowing how to properly use cammo from foliage was one of the things that made a difference between good and shitty players and now it's gone so shitty players would have more chance not to suck in this game....fucking belarussian hillbillies

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Even thou filled with rage, I can relate to this... It is no use for tanks to even try to use foliage... better just start CAMPING BEHIND SOLID OBJECTS... Yeah and if you can't find any... tough shit.

      Really why did they reduce foliage when passive spotting, the most important part of scouts and low tiers is taken away? They can't even do that now because they get perfectly spotted from distances they should be hidden. There is no need to change the spotting mechanism, if you wanted camo net to be more efficient then just change it more effiecient, but for the love of god do not change core mechanism which is most unrealistic!

      If a tank is behind a bush you cannot see it, no way you can see it. If it is scarce then yeah it should not be 100% hidden, but most of the bushes are pretty dense. And I'd say I would not spot a tank from 95% of them. Heck, a pine tree can hide a tank perfectly if positioned correctly, that is why there is so many brances on it. If you cannot trace loss, then you cannot trace it. That is why bushes are best friends, but they should had just optimized so that shooting will merely drop the camo value of bushes around better... It is a joke now... Try driving any big tank with low basic camo in forest... you will get spotted even if SURROUNDED from 4 directions because trees and bushes offer minimal bonuses... WG should play their own game already, there is no point in what they do...

      Delete
  19. I have to admit, it's pretty entertaining to see so much whining from people who think that the muzzle blast from their 120mm+ cannons should be hard to spot through a few strategically-placed bushes.

    I'd also like to share that a game I was in earlier had me trundling through the trees and bushes at the eastern side of Malinovka, attempting to find the last couple enemy tanks. I was in a Maus, not exactly the stealthiest tank in the world, but the vegetation allowed me to get close enough to spot the last camping TD, sitting out in the open and turning to aim at a teammate who he had apparently spotted, without being spotted myself. I was even able to fire and track him and still not light up.

    If I can scout in a Maus despite the vegetation nerf, I'm sure you guys can adapt as well.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The problem is not the muzzle flash, but tanks which are spotted from afar, while being totally concealed.

      Delete
  20. Basic camo factor on E100 iz 3 + 3 for each member of crew on 100% cammo perk = 21 + 5% ventilation = ~22-3

    for example Hellcat has 18 basic camo factor ... 108 with crew on 100% cammo perk + net + paint + brotherhood + bush = invisible (50m activates the automatic detection)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Crew camo is an average across all members, not a bonus per member. In the E-100's case it would be 3 + 3 for a 100% crew period. If half the crew were untrained, it would drop to 1.5 because of averaging.

      This is why wasting a skill round on camo for a poorly-camo'd vehicle is a bad idea; 100% camo skill simply doubles the base camo, and double crap is still crap. In the E-100's case, 3% is easily negated by connection latency or the cycle time between spotting checks.

      Delete
  21. 268 only visible at 246 meters, sitting in an open field if he has camo skill+net+paint? Pretty ridiculous to me... not to mention jE100 with 0 camo skill, sitting in the open, with paint and camo net, visible at 350meters... this game is going down the drain... :D

    http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/6154/camotest86.png

    Purple is for Obj 268, green for JpzE100.

    ReplyDelete
  22. "So yes, a "crappy camo net" would indeed have far more effect than any efforts that the crew operating the vehicle could muster."

    That's nice,

    However i feel that conclusion overlooks something;

    It is the crew that applies the camu-net and should therefore be of influence on the effectiveness of that camu net.

    An untrained crew should not be able to use a camu net to it's full effect
    a trained crew should be able to get the max out of a net....

    Seems to me that's both reasonable and realistic.

    /Mind

    ReplyDelete

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