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Apr 22, 2013

Extending the WOT german tech tree - Porsche heavy tanks

By Zarax

This is a purely speculative article that takes into account WOT German tech tree and uses historical tanks to speculate possible new tank additions.
While trying to keep the articles faithful to history some room for inaccuracy is allowed within these rules:

1) No tank or tank part will be 100% made up, at least a mention about tank role and vague specs are needed

2) Components not planned for the tank are allowed, provided it wouldn't create grotesque inaccuracies like putting a gun that would obviously cripple a tank under its weight

3) This will be limited to WWII plans, anything post war risks to be too arbitrary to properly balance

No serious expectation of anything listed to appear in WOT as described is applied, but as we're discussing about implementing history into an arcade game some items will be controversial.
This is unavoidable as WOT tech tree rules need a tank to be better than the previous one and ergonomics are not exactly cared about, meaning that most designs are over-performing their real counterparts.

This article of mine will also be slightly different, first of all because it is aimed at revolutionize an already existing tree, but also because unlike the previous ones it will start in reverse, from tier X.

The "Porsche unleashed" articles brought a lot of attention towards the good old German colossus, a tank that many feels is becoming obsolete in a world of fast, hard hitting tanks where armor is loosing importance.

Initially I wanted to do a "Buff my tank!" about the Maus, but with the recent news influx I instead decided enough material for a massively reformed tank tree.

Note: A similar article will follow for the Henschel branch, please bear with me some odd-looking things when compared to the actual trees.

So, how do you improve a tree in which so many tanks are already overstretched from their historical counterparts?

Simple enough, you nerf them back to history:

Don't worry though, the nerfs are in reality buffs, as a massive down-tiering will also follow.

The main aim of this reform is twofold:
restore the specialization of the Porsche tree and improve historical accuracy.
This way, they will behave close to the soviet IS-4 line, in which you have slower, heavily armored tanks that also can retaliate nastily, although possibly not as well as their lighter armored cousins.

Tier X: Maus II

The picture says most of it.
The pinnacle of the long Maus development, this version was to receive a newly designed turret with an enlarged turret ring and several other minor improvements.

In game this would allow to keep similar mobility to the current Maus, with the possibility of installing the 128mm L/61.
This would allow the Maus to improve its ability to fight off other heavy tanks, although the price for increased penetration would likely be in DPM, soft stats and/or HP.

Tier IX: Maus

The historical Maus and current tier X.
While keeping its mighty armor, it pays an hefty price for it in terms of mobility.
The extremely optimistic 1750HP engine is kept for tier X and replaced by a weaker one.
Starting from the absolutely terrible Porsche Typ 205/2 rated at 780HP, it follows to the MB 509 at 1080 HP to the final 1200HP MB517, for a top speed of 13kmh.

Armament wise, the stock cannon could be the 105mm L/68 (basically the production version of Lowe's cannon), followed by 127mm "KWK 41" (derived from naval artillery and discussed during development) L/45 to the classical 128mm L/55 that was finally mounted on the prototype.

We even have historical stock and elite turrets:

This would make Maus a real grind, where you will have to rely on armor but at the same time a force to be seriously reckoned with when top tier as most tanks won't easily penetrate you without gold ammo.

Tier VIII: VK 100.01 (P)

An early Maus draft,design specs were fluctuating wildly at this stage so we can take a few liberties to use different pieces of the early Maus development  to fit it on tier VIII.

Derived from the Porsche/Krupp VK 70.01 Lowe project, this 100 ton tank was to be heavily armed but with less than spectacular armor.
Basically a Lowe on steroids, frontal armor was planned to be 120-140mm with sides at 80-100mm.

The Porsche Typ 205/2 rated at 780HP will serve as stock engine, replaced later on by the Porsche Deutz Typ 180/2.
Mobility would still be relatively low, around 20-25kmh but this would be compensated by the armament side.

As neither armor or mobility for its size are especially spectacular, we can slightly compensate with armament.
88mm L/71 will serve as stock gun, with a first upgrade being the 88mm L/100.
105mm L/52 and 105mm L/68 will serve as upgrade path towards the Maus, however we can allow ourselves one optional gun.

Depending on chosen armor thickness, either the 127mm L/45 or the 15cm SFH L/30 could be used.
One is a naval gun firing semi-AP shells, while the other would be a tank version of Hummel's upgraded gun, so an howitzer with a semi-decent gold round.

Tier VII: VK 45.02 (P) Ausf B

The good old tier IX tank was in fact so overbuffed by Wargaming that it's almost unbelievable.
Historically, both ausf A and B were designed for the 88mm L/71 and sported a meager 80mm frontal armor.
While being sloped means that it would be marginally better than Tiger's, by WOT standards it's just paper.
It was planned to increase it but no amount is given, although we can be sure it wouldn't be as much as right now.

A more realistic amount could be anything from the original 80mm up to 130mm depending on effects on mobility and additional plating availability.
For balance purposes, I will allow myself to use an additional 30mm plate (the most common size for this purpose), bringing protection to a decent 110mm.

Keeping top speed the same, the engine grind will be the same as the current Tiger P, with the Porsche Deutz Typ 180/2 as top engine.
Armament wise, the 88mm L/71 is kept as top gun, while the 88mm L/56 will serve as stock gun.
A middle gun option can however be introduced in the form of the 105mm L/47 (source: Jentz, historically planned for the Porsche Typ 100/101), which for simplicity sake could share ammunition (and penetration stats) with Dicker Max gun, of course with lowered firepower and accuracy.
Tier VI: Tiger (P)

As this tank is quite popular I'm going to leave two paths: armor OR firepower.
In both cases the last engine has to go, along with the 88mm L/71, but don't despair yet.

Option 1: Armor
Simple enough, as tier VI heavy with such awesome armor, the long 88 has to go.
200mm at tier VI is simply excellent and a gun selection like the current VK 3001 (P) will be more than enough, transforming your tank into a strong anvil that can still pack decent firepower although lowish penetration.

Option 2: Firepower
A more balanced setup, this will leave you with a decent 100mm frontal armor, which will help making the tank lighter and keep some mobility.
The new top gun would be the 105mm L/47, which would basically make the tank comparable to ARL 44 or T-150 in game play.

Tier V: Porsche Typ 245

Outshone (or maybe shadowed is a better way to describe it) by the heavier Porsche designs, this Porsche-Rheinmetall light tank is another pretty "original" design in line with most Porsche proposals.

Apparently supposed to double as AA tank and armed with a 55mm auto-cannon, it was planned to be equipped with a Porsche Typ 101 engine with an advanced hydraulic transmission.

This 18 ton light tank was also well armored with a sloped 60mm glacis armor and interesting enough, it already was planned to use rubber-saving steel wheels, all in slightly under 5 meters length.

In game it could play a similar role as the british cruiser tanks, basically a light-medium tank with normal MM, armed in a similar way to the tier VK 1602.

 Of course, this leaves out two tanks from the existing tree.
I personally envision them as a connecting branch to the Henschel line, specs for them follows below:

Tier VII: VK 45.02 (P) Ausf A

The good old tier VIII tank was in fact so overbuffed by Wargaming that it's almost unbelievable.
Historically, both ausf A and B were designed for the 88mm L/71 and sported a meager 80mm frontal armor.
While being sloped means that it would be marginally better than Tiger's, by WOT standards it's just paper.
It was planned to increase it but no amount is given, although we can be sure it wouldn't be as much as right now.
The historical 80mm armor will be kept for this tank, maintaining its "fast heavy" role.

Keeping top speed the same, the engine grind will be the same as the current Tiger P, with the Porsche Deutz Typ 180/2 as top engine.
Armament wise, either the 105mm L/47 or the 88mm L/71 can be used as top gun, while the 88mm L/56 will serve as stock gun, although I'd favor the first.

As top of the "linking branch" this tank would be able to upgrade towards both VK 45.02 (P) Ausf B and either tier VII or VIII of the Henschel branch.

Tier VI: VK 3001 (P)

I really wanted to bring this tank down to tier V, however historical specs are in such a way that the tank is already where it belongs. Blame on WG for the horrid grind, it's completely unjustified from an historical POV.

Top specs for the tank are already quite good, so there is no need of changing them.
What is possible however, would be to ease the pointless grind that forces the player to research both tracks and turret to mount anything better than a 75mm L/48.
WG just conveniently buys on the myth that the original turret wouldn't fit a bigger gun, however the Krupp design shows an 88mm L/56 on it.

Tank upgrades would be the Tiger (P) naturally and VK4502 (P) Ausf A.

I also wanted to bring the VK 72.01 as tier VIII but unfortunately WG took it as made-up tier X.
It would also have been extremely hard to balance as tier VIII, as thin armor coupled with E-100 top gun are an extremely odd mix for a heavy tank, even balanced by awful DPM.

With this, our article ends and I sincerely hope you enjoyed reading about the mix of odd and utterly crazy Porsche designs.


  1. VK 3001P "Horrid grind" ?!?

    Perhaps on stock...

    1. Yes, I was referring to the grind from stock.

  2. mh, nice tanks. I do like the designes of the Type 245 and the Vk 100.01 (P) very much, but the german tech tree according to Silenstalkers translations is to 80% done :( even if the germans had so much tank designs in reserve QQ

    1. Well, I'm keeping the articles on store, you'll never know when they might become useful...

    2. Overlord did something like a "new german tech tree" suggestion once, he did also made the Maus tier 9 and the Maus 2 tier 10. coincidence? ;)

    3. No coincidence, Overlord made a semi-historical tree.
      I'd keep some differences of course but that's because I spent a bit more time researching.

      If you're interested I routinely update my german tech tree ideas here:

    4. The tech tree looks nice. But could you explain the Waffenträger 38D; why are the Elefant and the Ferdinad two different Tanks in your tree (as far as I know was the Elefant is a improved version of the Ferdinand); what a Waffenträger Panther and Panther 2 is (something like the Panzer Selbstfahrlafette 4 c/d ?)? all in all I like your Idea of the premium W1462 much :D [but I do like the W1466 more ;)]

    5. I will explain the Waffenträgers in another article, don't ask for too many spoilers :)

      As for the Sturmpanzer Elefant, in 1945 it was discussed about putting an heavy howitzer on the chassis again, so it could allow large caliber guns on tier IX.

      As for the W1466, I think it is only marginally different from W1462, both proposals wanted heavy sloped armor.

    6. No need, I already made an article about WT's

    7. Uh! A Waffenträger article? yea, enlight us about it ( and please explain the term. Is it something like jagdpanzer/ sturmgeschütz?) I think I start to like you very much :D

    8. I mean the thing with the Panther WT :S

    9. Spielberger's Panther and Variants has a nice collection of Panther based waffentragers.

    10. Waffenträger means "weapons carrier" - it's basically a hull with a big (unarmored) gun mounted on it.

    11. God, I think I'm blind. :S I don't find a "Waffenträger Panther". The only tank drawing that looks like the Pz. Sfl IVc is the "Flakpanzer Panther mit 8,8cm Flak 41" [I got the german version of Spielbergers books] And the general meaning of the term "waffenträger" is "some hull with a field gun"?

    12. Panther und seine Abarten (english version), page 220+ (they are included as Selbstfahrlafetten, which in fact is a WT - 128/150mm).

    13. well, I read "Artillerie-Selbstfahrlafetten" and thought: "oh well, artillery". You proved again my stupidity, even when I got the facts in front of me. :.(

  3. those new mauses would be awesome!! nice article!

  4. I like the idea, but I have 1 question: does the Tiger P have to go 1 tier down? I find it balanced compared to the Tiger H (+ I really like the tank). Can't you split the branch at T7 like the Ferdinand/JgdPanter II?

    1. Well, it could stay at tier VII but then the VK4502 would have no place or we'd have to let go another design.
      I know the tank is very popular but having 3 tier VII heavies would be quite a lot, don't you think?

      TDs are split because Ferdinand will sooner or later become part of a different TD tree but in this case not enough tanks are available to split the Porsche tree as well.

      BTW, keep in mind my articles are from an historical POV, gameplay is taken into account but it's not the primary focus.

  5. This article is ... how to say more gentle ... bad. Bringing Maus to 1 tier lower and giving Maus II with the E-100 easy-to-penetrate-from-the-front turret just to allow the bigger 12.8 is not cool and I don't like it. I don't like taking down Tiger P and Ausf A and B 1 and 2 tiers down. This is joke with them and their reputation. The only thing needed is buffing Maus and E-100 without such radical changes. Everything is in WGs hands. These prototypes not used by WoT yet could be useful for 3rd heavy line, but FFS don't make the Maus looking stupid in T9...this is joke with this monster. IS-4 from T9 to T10, Maus from T10 to T9 ... hell no.

    1. You're free to express your opinion of course.
      If you took time to read the disclaimer you can also safely assume this would never make it to the game so no need to worry about it :)

      My articles are about how WOT trees could be extended/redone using a closer to history approach so radical changes may happen.

      Also, as you gain firepower you need to give up on something so imho it's still balanced.

    2. Current E-100 turret is far superior to Maus turret.

  6. You sir are genius! WG, Impliment NOW!!!!

  7. The Tiger(P) is one of my very favorite tanks, but it'd be willing to have it dropped down to make way for this line-up. Makes so much more sense, and seems so much more competitive than what we currenly have.

  8. The VK7201 could easily be balanced at tier 8.

    If the gun is the issue, then look at the ISU-152 or T34 (ISU has the Object 704's top gun at tier 8! same with AC Mle 48!)

    It could be balanced the same way the T34 was, by reducing speed, turret speed, and gun stats (high aim time, long reload etc) and of course reducing the non-historical amounts of armor.

    -MotorizedPatriot/KarlManx of NA

  9. 13kmh is just simply too slow to work imho.
    There is a reason the T95 is left in the dust.

    Also how do you go about doing the armor difference in the TigerP?
    By having it as an outright selection for implementation? I fear the hard nerfing the TigerP would get for that armor to only drop to 132 pen and lose its top engine.

    I'm sorry but I see too much of this line as being the stock 3001P grind stretched to the max.

    1. Well, 200mm front AND a good gun wouldn't make the tank exactly balanced one tier lower, would it?

      Remember I'm not a WG developer so it is pure speculation on my part, imagining two possible options for fitting the tank at tier VI.

      As for the other tanks, you get a tank better armored than Tiger H at tier VII, a Lowe-like tank with better firepower at tier VIII and the good old Maus armor at tier IX.

      Not such a horrid grind, especially with most engines researched at lower tiers.

    2. I'll just quote myself from the T110 Armor thread.

      1. Too slow. 13kmh does not work. It won't work. T95 can get away with it by having a tremendous gun, good camo, and very few frontal weakspots. THough even then it is terrible. Now you want to make a tank with a terrible stock grind that also is terrible in final form? lelno. That's asking for a T34 fiasco all over again, except no unicum would touch the tier 9 Maus with a 10ft pole.
      2. Too many shitty grind, seriously, way too many. I don't know maybe it is something to do with the Eastern hemisphere but grinds are terrible and kill enjoyment.
      3. Still doesn't fix the tier X Maus being slower than crap.
      4. Some of the reshuffling is just wierd. Tier 6 TigerP? Remove the top engine and stick it with the L56 if it is going to keep the 200mm? Might as well just take it out of the line and make it a premium at that point. Which leads to my next point.
      5. Make the 45B a premium tank. Give it historical stats layout or w/e, make it a tier 7 premium. Hell, can finally have a premium German heavy where I can actually train both loaders so yea, there is a demand for that.
      6. From there you can have 100mm TigerP at tier 6 if you want leading to better balanced and more differentiated 200mm TigerP at tier 7. Alternatively you can drop the 100mm TigerP and just have the 3001P go to both tier 7s.

      Now to add onto points you made.
      -Marginally better armor than the TigerH with even less to differentiate it than the TigerP. Already don't like.
      -"Good old Maus armor" That's implying the Maus armor is any good, or that it wouldn't be a huge balancing detriment a tier lower while at the same time gimping it in most every regard.

    3. The Maus line is supposed to be one of defensive tanks, if you like agile heavies you've got another entire line of tanks.

      First of all, I'm not eastern european or russian for all it matters in this article.
      Second, I talk about history and unfortunately the historical Maus was that slow, like it or not.

      That said, I think you seriously underestimate the importance of armor in game.
      A tier IX Maus would be pretty much impervious to tier VII tanks, extremely hard to deal with for tier VIII and a pretty respectable enemy for tier IX while still being valuable against tier X.

      Let's examine tanks one by one:

      - At tier VI using the more balanced setup you'd have a tank that plays much alike ARL 44 or T-150.

      - At tier VII you get an excellent sniping heavy that can bounce some shots with proper angling, not a bad grind at all.

      - At tier VIII you get a tank with excellent firepower for its tier

      - Tier IX gives you the historical Maus with its excellent armor for tier. You don't get 300mm armor true, but you get a turret and a pretty good gun.

      - Tier X gives you a Maus with a better gun, what more would you want?

      Also, do you think other nations don't get to grind their tanks?

      I think we can agree to disagree here.

  10. i realy like this sugestion, especialy the tier 8-x part. as maus is useless in its current form now. there is a good reason why i never bought it yet.

    i gues we can only dream of this:)

  11. good but pointles, we know that wg will never consider a armoured german ht with a good non gold gun
    IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR, ARMOUR + good pen or armour and rof and acuracy

    point:i want armoured slow tank that packs a punch

  12. This VK 100.01(P) isn't the Tiger-Maus, is it?

    1. No, the Tiger-Maus is basically the early E-100.
      You can get an attempt of making sense here:

    2. Ah ok, thanks :)

  13. Already did this line, but it makes more sense this way.


    Explanation of VK70.01(P): It would pretty much be a tier 7 German ARL-44: High penetration (10.5cm L/70 top gun) and above average armor for it's tier (120/80/80 hull armor).

    Also, Vorschlag Maus is my name for this thing:

  15. How abou something like this:

    Tier X: Maus with researchable gun and turret to become Maus II
    Tier IX: VK 100.01 (P) early Maus prototype
    Tier VIII: VK4502A as the fast heavy, VK4502B as the slow, well-armored heavy
    Tier VII: Tiger P
    Tier VI: VK3001P
    Tier V: Porsche typ 245

    Most tanks stay where they are in the tech tree, I know tier X tanks don't usually have researchable modules apart from the guns but I don't see the point of having two almost exactly same tanks.

    1. Well, VK4502 (P) in both ausfs if kept to historical specs is not exactly tier VIII material.

    2. But its better than yours tree which is basically based on infamous WG method - let put same tanks with same specs on different tiers (i.e. Conqueror and FV215b).
      And I don't think that tanks with long 8,8 are not a proper material for T8, rather current specs of some tanks (like BL9 on IS3) are overstretched to T8.

    3. Well, the "same tank" went through a lot of changes during its design life (heck from 100 to 188 tons means a lot of redesigning).

      Also, I redesigned the tree according to the historical chassis specs, meaning that VK4502 would have 80mm or just slightly more.

    4. You wrote 'The pinnacle of the long Maus development, this version was to receive a newly designed turret with an enlarged turret ring and several other minor improvements.'
      for me it doesn't look like redesign from 100 to nearly 188 tons :)

      Tier 7,5 for me but with proper ROF could fit to T8 even with 80 mm (something like faster shooting Panther with more HP's)

    5. Look at VK 100.01 and look at Maus II, remember one had 100-140mm armor the other had 200mm+
      Basically Krupp and Porsche took the Lowe and transformed it gradually into Maus and E-100.

  16. So the Type 245, was to be armed with the MK112? or the high velocity MK114?

    Either would be a nice addition to the game, the ArfaPanther could do with that at tier 7 like a bigger Leopard with it's MK103.

    1. What is given is the low-velocity MK112.
      Do you have any data about the Mk114?
      I get a 1000 m/s MV but no other details.

    2. Sadly very little other than the longer barrel. I found the info in a friends book on the Pfeil, but it was very light on information.

  17. this is a grind of super slow tanks...i do not see this implemented (even hipothetical) due to the fact it is a frustrating grind and it makes the line unplayable for the majority

    flegmurda EU

    1. It's not a line for everyone, true.
      If you like fast tanks there's always the Henschel line.

    2. like your sense of humor, i do

      john johny

  18. drop everything down 2 tiers, historically tigers and panthers were fighting M4's and T-34's

    1. Tiger at tier V would be a bit of overkill, wouldn't it?


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