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Apr 15, 2013

Buff My Tank: TOG II*

SS: Today, we have a special guest article by Vollketten (US forums) about the possible TOG II* upgrades. Vollketten is a respected member of the US community, writing occasionaly on various topics, including Italian and British tanks. Enjoy.

Author: Vollketten, US forums

Buff My Tank - TOG II*

For anyone who still doesn’t know T.O.G stands for The Old Gang a group of WW1 tank designers who ran a design scheme parrallel to the main design channels in Britain in WW2 based in no small part on the rather abrasive personality of Sir Albert Stern. You can find more on the development and history of the TOG project at my TOG Files thread here.
Okay so by now everyone has realised that the TOG II* in game is a slow mammoth of a tank easily picked off by an opposing team as it wallows around trying to get into position. Personally I tend to find most of my team are dead before I even get to the battle.
I accept that on those rare occasions I get to use it properly and someone (a medium) provides some support and cover the TOG is a beast to reckon with-sadly this is very infrequent in pub. games so here I propose a buff.

 TOG I, late 1941:

Speed: The Old Gang being wed to a rather older idea of what WW2 would bring designed a deliberately long and slow tank being able to provide significant firepower (TOG looked more like a French B1 with a howitzer mounted in the front hull and both were originally intended to have sponson mounted machine guns akin to a WW1 tank) and being able to cross trenches (hence the long tail). So don’t expect a fast TOG anytime soon but that said there is a call to improve the speed and maneuverability.

Mass: So ignoring if one can for a moment that the exact weight of the TOGII* is not actually known (it is so heavy it had to be weighed in two halves and the summed so it weighs about 71,125 kg (71.125 tonnes) and that in the game they give it as 81.3 tonnes which is far too heavy. Thus in game it has a power to weight ratio of 7.38 hp/tonne from the 600hp engine.
Given its correct weight (assuming 600hp is correct) it would have a power to weight ratio of 600/71.125 which would give 8.44 hp/tonne. What this would do is improve the top speed from the woeful 14kph up towards the 20 kph mark. Also there should be commensurate increase in acceleration and a lower resistance across rough ground.

Armour: From this very blog, regarding a declassified Soviet document from 1943 gives stats of an unknown British tank in development which is nothing like anything else ever made and so MAY relate to the TOG programme (there are some other similarities).

That vehicle had an estimated armor thickness on the sides of 65 and 75mm, and frontal armor of 110mm which is certainly very close to the real TOG we know. Secondly there is another reason to buff the armour from an eye-witness to its development "she had been designed at a time when fighting was expected to take place around the Maginot line, her characteristics were slow speed, with a range of 50 miles for operating with infantry, great length to cross wide trenches and armour which would withstand a direct hit from a 105mm gun at 100 yards."

Now in game she has frontal armour of 76mm and obviously they have the real TOG II at Bovington to get measurements from. What they omit though is that the armour is not homogeneous armour plate but rather made from a base layer of mild steel and then clad with high hardness steel armour plate. Does this not mean it has weaker armour? I hear you say. Well no.

In the 1920’s and 30’s Vickers developed a face hardened armour plate (about 20mm thick) of a face hardness of 600 BHN and rear hardness of 400 BHN (German homogeneous armour plate was about 400 BHN) but the Vickers plate is so hard it could not be cut or welded and had to be bolted on. By the 1970’s Hadfield ‘Duplex’ armour was being used (which had been developed prior to WW2). This had an effective armour strength being increased due to the softer rear layer absorbing the energy of the impacting shell with a much lower tendency to spall that the very high hardness armour. In absorbing this energy it reduces the propensity of armour fracture due to impact which improves the armour of the outer layer. In other words a hard outer layer backed with a softer layer is actually both stronger and lighter (by up to 38 per cent over Rolled Homogeneous Armour) that RHA.

Or applied to the TOG, even if the 76mm thick armour remains it should have the strength of a greater thickness. Rather than remodel the game mechanics (I know there is a secret armour factor at play as well) it would be simpler to improve the frontal armour to 110mm instead.

Finally on armour as the entrance hatches on the left and right of the hull were there originally because of the sponsons planned it is perfectly reasonable to assume that they would have been better shaped, smaller and better armoured on any production TOG. I suggest small, circular hatches like on the later Churchills and the A33 Excelsior.

TOG II with 77mm

Armament: In all honestly the armament of the TOG is already sufficient. In fact it’s the best feature of the tank and I wouldn’t propose any changes to improve the performance at all. In real life the TOG II was also fitted at some point (prior to being fitted with the 17-pdr currently modeled) with a 77mm gun which may have been the OQF 77mm Mk.II as used already in the game of the Tier 6 British Heavy Churchill Mk.VII. This would be a reducing in performance from 150 damage and 171 penetration (with the current 17pdr) down to 140 damage and 148 penetration albeit with a slight increase in rate of fire.
The best way to buff the TOG II’s armament would be to increase the rate of fire as it has two loaders and more internal space than the Churchill.VII so it could have a rate of fire of 13 rpm which would be a small but nice improvement.

Size: Finally and more importantly at the end of the whole TOG project there were two other versions mentioned. That of the TOG III (no details) but also of a TOG-R (R for Reduced) basically a shorter TOG. By the end of the beginning (to paraphrase Sir Winston Churchill) it was obvious that there would be no return to a WW1 trench war so a shorter TOG was envisaged as there was no trench system to have to cross. How short would be speculative but it could look like this:

The Great Tank Scandal - David Fletcher
Paxmans Tanks
The Landships of Lincoln - Richard Pullen
Walter Wilson; Portrait of an Inventor - A.Gordon Wilson
Technology of Tanks – Richard M. Ogorkiewicz


  1. Interesting details about the real deal, thx.

    Ingame TOG is perfectly balanced (brutal gun/rof and monster HP vs bad armor/size/mobility), any buffs would make it laughably OP...


    1. You have one?

    2. I do. I love it. It is also quite balanced for what it is, firepower versus (lack of) mobility.

      Buffing the tog would result in something horrendously OP. The poor performance of the tog in a lot of matches is the fault of the driver, not the vehicle. 'lol tog train' people get themselves killed.


    3. More often I find a poor TOG performance the fault of the rest of the team actually when they just abandon you. Lert on the NA forum made a good guide to playing the TOG.

    4. You cannot blame the team for not adjusting their playstyle to you. I understand your basis, but look at it like this:
      Why should 14 people adjust themselves according to 1?

    5. The assumption that WoT is a team game is incorrect. WoT is a game where fifteen fools a side scurry off in whatever direction their tunnel vision demands. Playing the TOG with expectation of support outside of a platoon/company is not wise.


    6. i see TOGs owned in every battle they blow and way under power, all it has is hitpoints, it gets owned over and over never see one make it 5 mins in game

    7. then you don't play very often or get really bad teams. I have won many battles in my TOG II - with top guns, invader, steel walls etc.

    8. IT is imppossible to get the support needed unless you 1. Have a really good adn smart team who listens. or 2. You are platooning with others who know how to support u.

  2. I think the weight may come from Bovington. The stats on thier site give the weight at 80 tons.

    1. 80 short tons = 72,574 kg
      80 long tons = 81,283 kg
      80 metric tonnes = 80,000 kg
      Weighed in two halves adds to the confusion.
      -and unforgivably twice I forgot to reference the tank museum in Bovington as a source. Sorry chaps.

    2. Hmm, so you think Bovington have the wrong mesure stated as I don't imagine they'd be using short (US) tons, surely?

    3. I am not sarcastic here: go on and escalate the issue with the museum. If there is a buff for my landwhale to win then go on and fight my cause! :)
      Also: I have Kv-5 too. And I will buy any other crazed, completely unrealistic premium beast they may release :) Looking forward to FCM F1 and Char 2C (pics from WoT

  3. I'm surprised no one commented on the irony of the OP suggesting a buff for the biggest vehicle in the game. :)

    I want a TOG-R

  4. Anyone else notice that the tracks are on in different ways in the modern TOG photo and the 77mm TOG photo?

    And that the game had them right when it was brought in and then made them wrong in a modelling chnage?

  5. A general speed boost would make the Tog more effective.
    Currently the moment you are found in the wrong place at the wrong time with the TOG you are dead, massive health or not. IF the enemy team has any sort of respectable firepower shooting at you, you have no chance to survive.

    The lack of speed and ability to go anywhere/ get to cover in any timely fashion makes the TOG a very difficult tank to use, as it can not adapt to situations quickly.

    A slight mass decrease and increased top speed(20km at best) would allow TOG players more forgiveness in their actions.

    1. Same with T95, T28, Maus, E100, etc

      WG can't simply make them all fast because that's what "would help a lot"

      If you want a fast tank, then get one. If you want a lot of armor, get that. But no you can't have it all.

    2. All the tanks you just stated have considerably strong armor. Some have records as the strongest in the game. The TOG has relatively bad armor compared to its peers.

      You can ask almost any player, the togs is an exp farm. This why togs die fast once under fire, it cant escape and all the damage done goes straight to its health. Which IS considerably high but it does not mean the TOG lives longer than any tank by any considerable time.

  6. A speed buff? For the Turbo-TOG? I lead so many charges with the TOG, the rest of the team hardly able to follow - looks like it is way to fast right now.

    Nekrodamus EU

  7. Im betting serb is gonna say it's historical and stop whining

  8. As mentioned above, I think the TOG II* is balanced like it is now.
    You are slow and have bad armor but a lot of people just underestimate how important the massive amount of healthpoints can be.
    I like that tank a lot and it is really fun to play, except you are matched against to much T8 tanks. But still then, you can at least damage them.

    1. You dont meet tier 8's unless you are in a platoon.

    2. I know, but I play it in a platoon sometimes when I have no other T6 tank.


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