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Feb 13, 2013

It's a FAKE!

Hello everyone,

a recent discussion on US forums made me realize, how many fake modeller-made or fan-made designs are out there, confusing the hell out of people. Since World of Tanks is a game at least based on real desings (well, that's a strech, some of the vehicles in game were never more than a drawing sketched on a napkin during those wild Schnapps-und-Frauen evenings), Wargaming won't implement outright fakes - yet people still keep asking for them. Let's have a look at the most blatant ones, that keep popping up over and over again. Please note that since the modellers, artists and other creative people all share some dark fascination with Third Reich, most of the fakes circulating around are German vehicles. There is an insane amount of confusion, regarding the late projects.

Special thanks go to Kankou, Priory_of_Sion and others from the US forums

Let's get started:

E-79 "Schwarzwolf"




This image keeps popping over and over again. There are even sites that offer its full "history of development" and try to pass it as a genuine design. I don't blame them, because the tank looks great. However, it's a complete fake. It was made for the computer game "Panzer Front", but for some reason someone somewhere took it seriously and started spreading it around. It might also appear under the name Panther III - two vehicles are generally designated such - one is a strange drawing of a sort, the other is this one. Both are fake.

E-100 "Krokodil"


Another very popular "design", that keeps appearing from time to time. This time it doesn't come from a computer game, but probably from some modeller. Even this vehicle has fake history accounts on the internet, that can confuse people. The main reason it is so popular is because it looks great, however, it was never concieved by German engineers. Sorry. The whole "Jagdpanzer E-100" business was a pretty odd affair anyway - basically it was just a thought design - some guy somewhere had an idea that it would be cool to put a huge gun on the E-100 chassis and make it a superheavy tank destroyer. Nothing more, not even the type of the gun was decided. Mr. Hilary Doyle (a German tanks expert) confirmed this is a fake - the only thing that actually WAS real was a part of the weapons mount, but that didn't even fit the E-100 hull. The Jagdpanzer E-100 currently in the game is a result of what Wargaming thinks it might have looked like - the most realistic one at least. As was again confirmed by Mr. Doyle, the Krokodil wouldn't work for various reasons (the weight distribution, suspension strain... there are many threads about this on WoT forums). Either way - sorry, we won't see the Krokodil in the game.

E-90 and various E-100 and Maus based fakes


More than any other German vehicle have the superheavy E-100 and Maus hulls inspired a huge number of fake tanks. Notably the E-90 keeps appearing over and over again. Directly behind it are the E-100 hulls with various fake turrets (sorry, I don't have the books on this with me, so I can't give you an exact account). Maus suffers from the same syndrom - for example the Jagdmaus never existed. The Flakpanzer Maus (a Maus hull with a twin-88 turret) is also a complete fake and so is the Alligator (E-100 hull with the same setup). People just love to give the Germans more credit than they really deserve.

E-50 Ausf. M

Here it gets more complicated really. E-50 existed, at least as a concept (mind you, it was not a "Wunderwaffe" superdesign, the aim of the E series was to streamline and simplify the tank production as much as possible). E-50 Ausf. M however is a Wargaming fabrication. For all intents and purposes it's a fake, but a "realistic" one. At the end of the war, the (civillian) designers started coming up with all sorts of stuff. One of the things they came up with was the powerpack engine concept (in which the engine and the transmission form one block, that can be easily replaced on the field - well, at least more easily than the earlier engines). This would require the turret to be moved to the front and various other modifications. The Germans never did such a thing, this was done by Wargaming with the help of Yuri Pasholok and Hilary Doyle. So, it's a sort of half-fake. It never existed, but it's realistic.

Jagdpanzer E-50


Unlike the last design, this is a complete fake. Not even Spielberger mentions it as far as I know. Someone somewhere thought it would be cool to make a design that would look like the Jagdpanther II and that's how it probably started. As for the StuG E-75, I am not sure, I thought it was a fake, but some people say Spielberger mentions it and I don't have that Panzer Tract book to verify it myself. Jagdpanther III (sometimes designated Jagdpanzer E-79) is also a complete fake.

KV-VI (or KV-6 "Behemoth")


This is a complete fake, but an interesting one. It started as a kitbash by a modeller, who had too many spare parts of the KV-1, KV-2, BT-5 and BM-13 "Katyusha" plastic models. He did put them together and posted it online along with a fictional history. At that point, a great number of websites started taking this info as real, people started to even make fake photos of it (nevermind that the tank on the photo is a photoshopped T-35) and after that, even some popular magazines took the info for granted and wrote articles about it. KV-VI never existed, but it serves as an example of what a few people can do with photoshop, internet and free time. This is probably how most German fakes started too.

Panzer IX/X


Also a fake, but an "official one". In 1945, the Germans printed out a magazine called Signal, containing the silhouettes of completely made-up tanks, designated Panzer IX and Panzer X to mislead the allied intelligence. These tanks never existed, they were never even considered, it was pure propaganda. Nevertheless, after the war a lot of fairytales started springing up about mythical German equipment and the tales of Panzer IX/X were amongst them. Usually most people know it's a fake, but from time to time, someone gets mislead by some of the internet articles and considers it real.

88mm T-34


This is a photoshopped image, such a vehicle never existed (this is the original one). It started spreading around the WoT forums and people ask for this vehicle regularily. Sorry, people, this one's a bust. The whole thing is fuelled by a Japanese modelling company even making a model of this vehicle.

There is another version of the "88mm T-34" circulating around the internet:


There is no reliable info on this vehicle and a lot of people (including me) consider it a fake too. There is some vague account on its use by the Germans, but without any proper sources, so yea.

Anyway, I hope you find this useful and don't get misled by fakes! :)

39 comments:

  1. Interesting post,

    yet its kind of strange from WG to implement E50-m and T28 prototype and mentioning they will just add historical accurate tanks in the same sentence.

    Even the actual E100 turret is not really the one which would have been used. Adler Turret is alot more likely, yeah but we are now in "World of Russian-Favoured Partly-Fictional Tanks" :)

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    1. The E-100 turret was to mount the E-100 turm which was a lighter weight version of the Maus II turm. It looks like it would in game.

      The original Maus turm was considered earlier but the lightweight version of the Maus II turm was selected.

      Look at Panzer Tracts 6-3.

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  2. You call it fake but there is no reliable information regarding the E100 TD´s - except Wargamings Specialists that say the Rumors regarding this Projects are Fakes - did you ever heard the stories of captured projects by the Americans in the last days of WW2 that are still Classified - you can bet that WG and its specialist is not aware of them!

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    1. I don't do conspiracy theories of any kind, sorry. As for the E100 TD: Spielberger writes about it.

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    2. yes you do - the same way as WG - as you cleary say: they are all Fakes ;)

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    3. you like projects started by germans and finnished by USA?...
      well the "UFO" files were de-classified some time ago.. you know.. lights in the sky stuff.. the US government actually came up with the alien idea and knew the conspiracy nuts would go wild for it so they set about fervently denying that these sightings were of aliens.. even though nobody originally thought they were..

      a German engineer drew up a design for a fixed 360* wing air vehicle that could theoretically hover still.. making an incredibly precise and devastating bomber.. he sent it in, he was told they didn't want anything to do with the idea.. later he was assigned as maintenance staff to a base where they were secretly building them.. i forget if he defected before or after D-day actually.. but the "flying saucer" idea is indeed a WW2 era analogue to the helicopter(surprise, surprise a US development).. which made any further 360* wing development redundant..

      so maybe they will put flying saucers in WOWP ? ... or not...YAY CONSPIRACY THEORIES

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    4. like ... OMG
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_VZ-9_Avrocar

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    5. yes the Avrocar is the nearest thing to a useful piece of kit from the whole affair..
      Hitler had ideas of flying saucers bombing London..
      and the US wanted something that could fly over The Arctic to reach Moscow from Alaska without needing additional support along the way

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  3. Somebody posted excerps of a book, where they talked about the currently used E-100 turret. It was even said, that it might have been put onto the Maus, but the overall hight would have been too much for it being transported by train through tunnels ^^

    I abolutely understand, that they want to keep too fantastic tanks out of the game, but some of them are just too sexy ;)

    Also a little voice in my head says, that if the Maus hadn't been build and tested, Serb would claim, that it wouldn't have moved a hundret meters without breaking down ;)

    Snortsch

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    1. given that if that had been the case, it is likely the German engineers thought the same.. i wouldn't blame him..
      though really i suspect he'd ask Doyle first and then ask the others if Doyle was talking sense..

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    2. we all know when Doyle said yes, their turned to their rusky expert who said no
      and no remained

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    3. Doyle has been infected by the German tank hype,
      that's why WN can't trust him anymore.
      It won't take long, till he posts in the forums, that
      the Tiger is grossly underpowered and starts to flame SerB ^^

      Snortsch

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  4. And let's not forget the always quoted "Nast Sonderfahrzeuge": http://nast-sonderfahrzeuge.de/fotosammlung/index.php?cat=3
    Dont know if all the drawings are made from him, but many quote him
    And I think he had some kind of Nazi BattleMech, too, but I could have seen that somewhere else

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    Replies
    1. Ah, I was wondering where all this crap is coming from. It's some sort of alternative history website.

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    2. Not really alternative history website.
      He has a lot of other Mercedes Benz related stuff ("exotic" cars) and he claims, that he invented the term "historical projection", because pretty much every drawing is more like post-war, "but could have been developed, if the war went on"

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  5. Really interesting stuff.
    But...
    Ok those super E100 TDs and "mutant E-75"s (E90 etc.) are really fake, i got it. But then there are other tanks in WoT what are also totally fake, and they are accepted? Because? Because why? Because they told us those are "logical" successors/concepts...
    I respect the opinions of those tank experts about E100 Krokodil ("the weight distribution, suspension strain...") after all it is their job to know this. But WoT is just a videogame, there are other really "funny" things e.g.: Panthers long 75 gun, E50 long 88 gun, they are just ridiculous though they are in game... Are those guns acceptable? Could they work IRL? Tiger with L/71 88 gun? The magical Ahnenerbe armor of VK4502 tanks? What about T50 and T50-2? Their fabulous in game mobility? And so on... Are these things also approved by those experts?
    If yes, then don't argue about the "mechanical problems" of Krokodil. It isn't worse concept then any other really fictional tank in this game...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A lot of tanks in WoT are different from their real life parameters. Sometimes they are better than their real life counterparts (VK4501 has stronger armor, more powerful German engines), sometimes they are worse (IS-7 is nerfed compared to IRL). That's the price of balance. But none of them are totally fake - as in "never concieved", the most borderline case is the turreted T28 (which looks very different from the wooden model) and the E50 Ausf.M. As for the 75mm L/100 - that existed as far as I know, but it was hideously expensive to manufacture and there were other issues (barrel oscillation, barrel getting twisted by heat etc.). But those vehicles existed. The fact they are balanced in the game differently than they behaved in real life, that's another matter.

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    2. Yes those are "balance" things. But could they work in real life too? I heard they couldn't put a L/71 gun on Tiger, it was totally impossible (atlest with the original turret). We can use it ingame...

      But they biggest con against Krokodil (beside it's fake origin) is the "mechanical problems" ("wouldn't work")?
      So what?
      There are other tanks what wouldn't work with their ingame modules, or they couldn't work in the way, they work in game (T50-2).

      I'm not a notorious 'Krokodil'-fan, don't wanna in game at all cost, but to tell the truth I like its design more than the current "fat Ferdinand" E100.

      I just wanna point out that some time their arguments about tanks are somewhat inconsistent. (->"could work or not")

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    3. well that's why the T-50-3 is being replaced by a KV-bobblehead the MT-25 was it called?

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    4. Yep... after many months...
      But the mobility will stay the same, they just change the "packing".

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    5. the mobility will not stay the same, the new one is heavier, it might have the same theoretical top speed but so does the hellcat.. which, though fast, is not really capable of doing the same crap as a '-2

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    6. I'm with Stieger11 on that. Mechanical reliability is not really an issue within WoT (Tiger anyone?). So it was authoritative decision by WG to give JagdE-100 the shape that it has in game. The case is even more interesting, because Mr Doyle asked by Overlord (credit to him for having enough balls to publish it) said that because of aforementioned problems with JagdPanther-like design most likely E-100 based Jager would be similar to JagdTiger. I believe the deciding factor was difficulty with accessing engine compartment in Ferdinand-shaped hull.
      And don't even make me start about the "front transmission E-50/75" crap.
      Oh, and for all fans of Krokodil, voila - http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?client=tmpg&depth=1&hl=en&langpair=ru%7Cen&rurl=translate.google.com&u=http://drongo-lab.ru/archives/35340&usg=ALkJrhg_JB9quWBWGUAgET410gOa55Mtpg - all hail Drongo Labs!!!

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    7. @Stieger11: The_Chieftain posted a picture in one of his threads of a Tiger H armed with the 88mm L/71.

      Apparently the turret used(which was the Tiger P turret) was designed to fit the larger 88mm if needed.

      Delete
  6. Thanks for posting this up. I keep telling people that these are fake and often copyrighted designs but people don't like listening to logic.

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  7. I dont mind whether theres "fake" tanks in the game or not, it makes it interesting and as long as theyve got a core of historical tanks then i dont mind to much as long as they dont become ridiculous.

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  8. It's simple. Wargaming don't allow fakes except those they faked themselves.

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  9. There are also in the internet many faked Polish tanks, most of them appeared after WoT release. Sometimes people make even faked "original" plans.

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  10. Pz III Tiger III...loled at this...the fakers didnt even checked if there is already a pz8 or not.(Maus).
    And they keep failing on adding various models of the pz8 tiger 3...:)))

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    1. I ment' Pz VIII Tiger III*

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  11. I like stuff like this, nice post!

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  12. Even you give us the E-50M (half fake half real), why we don't get a E-75M, so the germans have a "main battle tank" too?

    Maus and E-100 are something special!

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  13. Back years before the game came out, there where some photoshops going around of a T-34 with either a StuG III or Jagdpanze IV style setup.

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  14. "As was again confirmed by Mr. Doyle, the Krokodil wouldn't work for various reasons (the weight distribution, suspension strain... there are many threads about this on WoT forums). Either way - sorry, we won't see the Krokodil in the game."

    Just a correction - Doyle was referencing Wargaming's Jp E-100 (the current tier 10 TD) when he said these things, not the Krokodil. That doesn't make the Krok any less fake, obviously, it just means that WG could have given us either model and it would have been equally fake. My guess is that they couldn't secure the copyright to use the Krok and had to come up with their own alternative design.

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  15. Jagdpanzer Maus: definitely NOT a fake.
    It was JPz E-100 sister project, as both tanks were considered for assault gun conversion, it's in the Panzer tracts series.

    Jagdpanzer E-50:
    It gets a bit more complex here.
    While there is no direct mention of its existance, it might very well be what JagdPanther II would have been in production as the whole Panther II project was shelved in favor of later Panther I and E-50.

    As for the JP E-75:
    It's the same hull as the E-50, with LESS internal space as extra armor space was to be fitted "inside" the tank so unlikely to be a realistic design.
    It is however possible that an E-series TD would have had characteristics between E-50 and E-75 (like same front and suspension as E-75 but side armor as E-50 to save weight and space).

    Anything other than that is to be considered flat fake.

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  16. You all should just go play your lame game. Get a girl friend to. These are Nazi fantasy weapons. Saying they are fake is like saying America never thought about space based lasers.

    Seriously, stick to your stupid game. You look like an idiot. Concept does not equal fake, you fart sucking toad.

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    1. this game is more than a game...its a tank encyclopedia and you should shut up and stop being a dick on the internet. we want historical accuracy,which you have nothing to do with so shut up

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    2. Obvious troll is obvious. He's browsing a blog for a game he's bashing. Wonder what made him come here hmm?

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  17. Object 279 - now this...this would be cool to have in game. I have not seen that yet.

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  18. Argh as if reasrching on the Internet could get any easier with fakes I thought the flak maus/e-100 was real

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