Hello everyone,
this post is about the patent link, that has been posted around the forums many times and various people claiming it's a proof that MM is rigged.
First and foremost, PLEASE stop sending me this link, in last 7 days or so, I have recieved around 50 PM's or mails with this "news".
Second: I believe that this patent (while it describes a possibility of how MM could look - the point of this is to make the patent as broad as possible, encompassing every possibility - this is a common practice in intelectual property law) is by no means any proof that MM is rigged against good players. It's simply an option, that shows Wargaming was thinking about this.
Personally, I can't judge, simply because I am not a good enough player to be affected by any such "rigs", but I doubt there is any such rigged MM implemented.
retards will keep using this as proof till infity
ReplyDeleteno matter how much proof was shown ever since WoT was in CBT, no matter if the exact same thing discussed then shows up in a patent ..
Deletepeople still chose to believe a company that lies to them constantly, rather than thinking for themselves
yeah right - "proof" as in Thruthiness
DeleteI wish this was true so i could have a challenge
ReplyDeleteSo, reading that patent link, it seems that this win rate based MM thing is just taken out of context. It is just one of various possible ways of doing the matchmaking and described as such.
ReplyDeleteWait, im confused. The so called good players are always complaining about poor game quality.....so when you put on the bottom of the list, it should be more challenging, isnt that the next best thing to quality game play.
ReplyDeleteYou cant change the entire spectrum of players. So, now that you have more of a challenge, your still not happy.
LOL. Human nature at its finest.
Funny things is that these 'good players' would not be affected by this. Most of players complaning about rigged MM are in 48-52% range.
DeleteOf the really good players, an overwhelming majority never complains about the matchmaking. This is only common amongst average players.
DeleteThe same as with 0-damage hits. Good players know whether a shot is safe and when it might be 0 damage. When it's 0 damage, they don't complain because it was a risky shot anyway.
More challenging ? sure.... Whole your team dies in first 2 minutes - try to win this "challenge" ... - not fun
DeletePayne
the placing you in bottom tier and then gonig to higher tiers for awhile... thats old news.... i thought it was anyway
ReplyDeleteEven if it's true, game is about challenges, si? Not about sealclubbing, but about making effort to win a battle.
ReplyDeleteIt contradicts stats gathering, but stats are for whiny bitches.
yea, they put ther stats before the game, then use its a pub for an excuse, lmao.
DeleteSomething is "rigged" because it won't let you play always as top or as bottom tier? It doesn't decide the battles outcome before the first shot, right?
ReplyDeleteThen what is this "MM is rigged" bullshit? Maybe it's "controlled", not totally "random", but far from "rigged".
well you can tell pretty early if its a win or a loss because you simply cant hit ANYTHING and if you do it just biunces of everything,oh and your armor is paper no matter what tank you havem,so YES its rigged.
DeleteWe may also mention that the win rate aspect of the MM patenting will have an application in WoT when 42/7 will be avaiable, so it's logic that WG wanted to patent that aspect too.
ReplyDeleteI've known, even before this proof, that MM is rigged .
ReplyDeleteIt goes beyond battle tiers. It calculates how pro player is and starts to shoot incredible shit teams and low rolls against your tank. Then after lose streaks, it resets and puts normal "unrigged" match. This happens over and over again.
Example: I dominated 8 FIRST matches COMPLETELY with Foch155
(Dominate: 3x/2x more damage done than next player in either of the teams)
after that I've played about 20 more games and my winrate with has gone down to about 60% but I still do as much damage.
Example 2: I got Obj261 and I mostly shoot more damage than any other player in my / enemy team. I hit AP shells even with T92 and MM found out after first games that I'm not allowed to make damage and win with my Obj261. It puts teams where teams go one side only (YES IT CAN PREDICT WHERE PLAYER GOES IN ANY MAP) and makes the AP shells to miss, shooting always the one square centimeter which is outside of the targeted tank.
Example 3: After watching stats from XVM for long time, I can clearly see that after win streaks it puts you in a NO-CAN-WIN game with teamkillers,bots and siemas. If you somehow manage to win it, next one will be same, but now your team has even less top tier tanks, other team having 1 or 2 more of them.
Proof?
Delete"YES IT CAN PREDICT WHERE PLAYER GOES IN ANY MAP"
DeleteDammit, completely reliable prediction of any person's action? THE Holy Grail of AI development? As a student of AI I have just wet my pants... after I change them I'm gonna to build a temple for WG so I can pray to them...
Perfect player prediction? BY GODS! they have created the philosopher's stone of matchmaking algorithms, betting prediction and stock market analysis. ALL HAIL OUR TANKY OVERLORDS!
DeleteIF there would be rigging good player will suffer and bad players will benefit, so why are so much bad players complaining then?
ReplyDeleteppl like me with over 60-65% win should complain, not ppl with 48-50%...
ps: this rigging is just myth, i played thousands of games and never noticed it
Lol I never realized how many conspiracy theorists my thread would bring out. just wanted to post some interesting information.
ReplyDelete-Tedster59 (NA)
Thank you for posting this SS.
DeleteYea, and since i put a reticle mod on, my no damage is thru the roof......co incky dink?
ReplyDeleteIDTS...................
i dont think so.
The section describing the rigging is in the specification not the claims. WG is describing an aspect of the game. If such language was in the claims then you could argue they were trying to make their patent more broad. Again they didn't, they just describe an aspect of their game.
ReplyDeleteJust because a company owns a patent, doesn't mean they use it.
ReplyDeleteHow so?
Well, look at any technology giant such as Sony or microsoft. They have patented so many things they have never used. Perhaps at one point wargamming wanted to make a skill based matchmaker, but coming up with a way to keep track of player skill (given that current available stats would normalize in such a situation) might have proved difficult.
Going back to the sony example, they patented away to effective destroy the trade of second hand games. While people were running around as if the world was ending, shortly after Sony came out and announced that they would not be doing any such thing for the Ps4.
The patent
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-01-03-sony-patents-tech-to-block-use-of-second-hand-games
The response
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-21-sony-tells-eurogamer-playstation-4-will-not-block-used-games
Once more, just because a company owns a patent, doesn't mean they use it. I have yet to see any conclusive proof of a "rigged" matchmaker in world of tanks.
please learn the difference between patent applications and issued patents. Hint: none of the patents mentioned including WG's is owned by any company.
DeleteNow if you start to compare Sony and Microsoft with WG we have a problem.
DeleteHow can you compare a company who developed the Betamax one of the first VCR's with WG?
You try to compare an elephant with an ant.
WG invented and researched....NOTHING
Merely they just ...DEVELOPED... a freaking game...jeez
bah... here is the proof, and always is people saying that means nothing... what do you want a direct confesison from the devs??
ReplyDeletei got tired of wot...
now im playing "heroes and generals" ww2 game with infantry, tanks and planes... its beta but its free to play...
no more world of retards for me...
There's no proof that the current matchmaking system used in World of Tanks is rigged.
DeletePersonal experiences may validate an opinion, but they don't prove any fact. Also, saying that X can do Y doesn't prove that X did do Y, think about the Cold War: both factions could have started WWIII, but they didn't.
DeleteIt's funny, because it describes several ways to do the "rigging". So question to conspiracy theorists: which one the game actually uses, if any?
ReplyDeleteSeeing as extremely good players can reach 75% wins solo with good tanks, I seriously doubt any rigging has taken place. Being 1/15th of the team can easily limit your influence that much.
ReplyDelete-Platypusbill
please give an example of a 75% solo player
ReplyDeleteIndeed, when I read the post, it seemed like all that was described in a "We have these options available to us, and ideas of how to do them, but we don't currently."
ReplyDeleteThat's how I see it, anyway. From what I've seen, MM is just too random to be 'rigged'.
What some may have missed is that the patent was filed on May 16, 2012 - this means that work on preparing the patent was well advanced months before WG filed their suit against Changyou.com (Wargaming.Net LLP v. Changyou.com Limited et al) on May 08, 2013.
ReplyDeleteClearly, the patent was not registered as a response to Changyou.coms' "copy" of WoT which, as far as I'm aware, wasn't even released circa May, 2012.
Lemmingtrain
I am quite convinced it is true. Remember the mod who published the MM rules on the EU board where he told that your recent winning rate influenced your MM. That thread were removed from the boards after 2 days......
ReplyDeleteAnd it fits what we see in our gaming group. You always start the day by winning everything and then after 5 or 6 games you cannot win any games anymore because the rest of your team cannot scratch their own arses without help and it will keep on being like that until you take a 3 hour break and then your shit team indicator is reset and you can have fun games again.
It is like that EVERY single session.
100% rigged and controlled by devs!
DeleteBlah, blah... rigged MM... blah, blah... Proof? Statistical basis anyone?
Delete"your recent winning rate influenced your MM"
DeleteThis is THE FACT.
Anyone in doubt should collect their own evidence showing that matchmaker isnt rigged.
Which can't be done by a bad player, because MM is carrying him , keeping his WR atleast near 50%.
Claiming something is fact just undermines your credibility. Every good scientist waits until something is proven right or wrong, before he publishes his work and even then it's often just a theory... and btw have you ever heard of presumption of innocence?
DeleteIf the MM is rigged as OP says, why I can sometimes win 80% of the games I did that day? Why did I yesterday have trouble to reach my personal lower limit of 50% daily winrate because of my first 9 games I won only one? Why do I have 66% winrate in my FCM in 400 battles and only 30% winrate in Type59 in 100 battles? At least these show that your imaginary doesn't work as good as you think. If it's indeed real, it works with minor impact on players...
"Anyone in doubt should collect their own evidence showing that matchmaker isnt rigged."
DeleteEasy there fella, I'm afraid you're the one who should be proving your statements in first place.
"Anyone in doubt should collect their own evidence showing that matchmaker isnt rigged.
DeleteWhich can't be done by a bad player, because MM is carrying him , keeping his WR atleast near 50%"
quite the contrary.
Patent described suggest that playing a tank of tier 8 (let's assume) when you win, you will be more likely to play against tiers 10, while if you lose, you will be playing more against tier 8 and lower.
So when good player would be punished for wining (he will win less being bottom tank then being top tank), retards will be constantly losing being top players.
that means we should expect in almost every battle top tanks being retards and bottom tanks being pro.
gathering the data to prove/disprove rigged matchmaking would require to write down for every battle your current streak, your win ratio, battle tier.
People seem not to notice, that MM "rigging" doesnt decide if god players will be in 1 team and bad players in other. it only puts good player at the bottom and bad players at the top, so with limited amound of space it would make both teams rather equal.
If this WOULD be a proof for a rigged MM wouldn't it the Kind of skill-based MM everyone is wishing, because too many Retards drive around?
ReplyDeleteYeah guys think about it, you can't have skill-based MM and a winrate of 55% or higher...
Also I think it's good that you can sometimes "rule" over the noobs. If you are so skilled like you ever say you should have the chance to rock some matches
-Mppol
Rigged MM exists and all the excuses and routing it to the conspiracy theories are just a lmae excuse.
ReplyDeleteProve it exists, please. And also explain why some of us have over 55% winrate playing solo.
DeleteProve it is not.
DeleteI (not the one who you replied) have over 55% winrate yet it would be shitloads higher without all the cheating MM does on daily basis.
Prove it exists.
DeletePresumption of innocence.
So every time you have a bad team it's MM cheating? With such a big playerbase, there have to be noobs and bad players, actually I guess there are more of these low-skilled players then the pros. So the statistical probability of getting bad match isn't negligible.
Bad matches happen, noobs happen, enemy outskilling you happens, bad RNG happens. Does the real life somehow cheat, when you get a row of bad luck events?
"Prove it is not."
DeleteBecause people has to prove the logical and commonly assumed option A, yet you don't have to prove the absurd and poorly supported option B; sounds legit. Moreover when a basic understanding of stadistics easily explains the current WR variation.
When it takes 10+ games to get just 1 victory and you have a W/R above 60% then you know something is going on behind the scenes - its practically a statistical impossibility unless the MM is rigged and you are deliberately being shoved in with a bunch of 44% W/R morons and bots.
ReplyDeleteI've suspected for years this was happening. Its as if the server just flicks a switch after you've won too many games and suddenly your whole team is made up of < 50% W/R players and the enemy team has maybe 2 or 3 < 50%.
Actually if even one of the systems affecting MM described in the patent was active, such streaks would be impossible or at least highly improbable.
DeleteI have losing streaks and the playerbase sucks --> ??? ---> Rigged matchmaking.
DeleteGood job.
I have another explanation for that - chance.
DeleteYou got a good winning streak? Well, the fact about streaks is that they end.
"When it takes 10+ games to get just 1 victory and you have a W/R above 60% then you know something is going on behind the scenes - its practically a statistical impossibility unless the MM is rigged and you are deliberately being shoved in with a bunch of 44% W/R morons and bots."
DeleteYou have NO CLUE about statistics, obviously.
Interesting. So, your team has a 60% WR player thrown into a 44% WR bunch of morons, because you win too much. Let's assume that this is some kind of argument. But what about the other team? There are, as you have said, only winners there. Oh wait, the rest of your team are 44%, so every each one of them should be thrown into a bunch of 60% players to get better results.
DeleteSo the whole MM is only focused on you? Yeah, right.
The left team always has worse tanks and players. ;)
The thing is, that even if you design a MM that puts good players with bad ones, and mediocre with mediocre, the result will be that every team will consist of couple of good, mediocre and bad players together. So, if it's rigged, then it's not at the same time. ;)
There is no need for proof, rigged MM is a fact... There is not a single sane reason why they shouldn't rig the MM. The +25% RNG can cover any manipulation...
ReplyDelete"There is no need for proof"
DeleteHa ha ha, oh wow.
"Facts don't need to be proved".
DeleteYou're doing it wrong :)
If you don't need proof to prove your hypothesis, you can just create your "Church of rigged MM"...
DeleteClaiming something for a fact just proves you are wrong.
That's why Captain Haddock was laughing at him.
DeleteAssuming, and this is a big assumption, that there was proven manipulation of the MM going on how many of you (both current "believers" and "non-believers") would continue playing?
ReplyDeleteMe - I'd probably continue but it would be "just be for fun." TM
I'd run a poll on the forum but I suspect it would get pulled pretty quick :)
Lemmingtrain
If i found out that the MM is rigged right now, i wouldn't stop playing because nothing would actually change - it'd be the same MM except now i know something i didn't before. In fact, if i found out that this MM is indeed rigged, i'd if anything enjoy it more because i'd be looking for ways around said manipulation, and even ways to exploit it.
DeleteAs with everything i've posted in this thread, these are all my opinions though. The only fact i've presented is that streaks end XP
I guess the perpetually drunk US patent office will fall for this one as well. Does anyone take them seriously nowdays? Any patent office that believes Apple invented rounded corners have to be incompetent.
ReplyDelete1) Y U NO SKILL MM?
ReplyDelete2) supposedly activ skill MM
3) Y U RIGGED MM?
4) SerB, Y U NO LISTENING CUSTOMERS?
exactly :)
DeleteTrue on so many levels.
DeleteAnd the guy who posted the claim about rigging whines all the time about everything at Overlord's blog. Seems like WG steals his cookies every morning.
Skill MM should not mean that good players are getting thrown shit at. Skill MM = balanced teams. Not me (1900+ WN6) in a ape team with all the good players in the enemy team. Rather rule than an exception. Confirms the rigged theory.
DeleteI achieved 63% winrate (got it from companies but i became good enough that i can keep it up with 90% solopub, 10% is CW and platoons) and i have the experience that MM is not rigged against me. I spawn atop just about the same as in the bottom.
ReplyDeleteThis kind of claim is pretty unreasonable in my opinion because it's an asset that, if true, you cannot change, and you have to work around it or solve this altogether.
I think i know where the ideas of MatchMaker rigging come from. I've experienced the following phenomenon:
ReplyDeleteStep 1) Player is 50% and gets matched with 50%ers
-> player will recognise other 50%ers as good players, because they have similar skills and thus think in similar ways. player will also forgive some amount of mistakes from other players
Step 2) Player gets better and becomes 55%
-> Player will no longer see 50%ers as skillful. To a 55%er, they might seem as decent players and only that. Therefore, he will forgive less mistakes from them and will be more frustrated with the lack of skill in them.
Step 3) Player becomes a 70% solopub winrate "super unicum"
-> This is of course an exaggeration, but a player like this would conceive 50%ers as "utterly bashit retarded". He will not forgive any mistakes whatsoever and will feel like he is being matched with a brainless team he has to carry much more often than a 50-60%er would.
In summary, i think this whole "rigged MM" ordeal is actually a matter of perception because the concept of "stupid" or "bad player" is relative.
No one will get a 75% wr solo pub, unless they only played the mini maus back in the day. That is a fact. If they did have such a win rating solo pub, then platooned they'd have a 95%+ wr. MM is without a doubt rigged for solo pubs making it difficult to succeed. But I also noticed an anomoly where platoons/players with incredible stats are usually top tier in the battle. Never are they at the bottom.
ReplyDeleteThere always was something going on with MM, but the padding gold sling clan platoons never want to admit it because it would diminish their self worth.
While it is your experience that unicum platoons get matched at the top more, my experience is that all platoons do. This is probably also unintended in my opinion.
DeleteMy personal experience is that it's random. However I have never been under 55% winrate so I have no experience of matchmaking with low winrate.
DeleteI am glad you don't jump to conclusions here. Just because such a system is available to WG in the patent doesn't mean they actually chose to implement that specific part.
ReplyDeleteI have 71% winrate and I don't see how it is "obvious" that mm is rigged. It seems fine to me. Whether it is actually rigged or not I don't see a way of knowing.
i think there's a problem with just posting "I have X winrate".
DeleteWe all need to prove it.
Providing a link to a player's stats isn't enough either, so i'll upload a screenshot of my own account with its stats. After all, the only things not public about my account showed in the garage itself are my gold, credits, free XP and premium days, which i don't care about disclosing.
http://i.imgur.com/xBuJW5K.jpg
you guys dont have more then 55% wr so you try to blame wg for that wtf is wrong with you. i have is1 soloq 73% wr, how mad 1-10 reply
ReplyDeleteAs for me, as a player whos winrate consistently breaks 85%, i sort of kind of can feel MM bearing more weight on me lately, as often i can see Unicum platoons on the otherside, but rarely on my side.
ReplyDeleteBut then again, it could just be my bias.
http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/216033-win/page__fromsearch__1
ReplyDeleteAfter i made this post, i find my winrate dropping at a noticeable rate(95% to 88% is quite noticeable, trust me), but to be honest, i'd rather believe that its just me playing at a shittier level.
This is not solo, is it?
Delete-Gottank
Really, been reading this blog for a while, and suddenly i feel the need to post, for the first time.
ReplyDeleteThe whole concept of a rigged MM is lame just from the start - if it's rigged to make you personally suck if you start dominating - how many people will play? That's precisely the position SerB took in a certain Q/A thread i used to read way back.
It's as simple as that - if you want to dominate WoT - dominate it.
From personal experience (been using XVM for the last ~10k battles in diff. balance levels) i can say that the concept of a rigged MM appeals some battles, but mostly it doesn't - i can see what i do wrong when i fail, i can see what i did right when i win. 16k battles and 53% overall WR, with ~55% (mostly) on my T10 tanks (and a lot more variety on the others, which i never played for fun). Sure i know that's not a lot, and that's way far from dominating randompub games, but i play a foch155 (90% of it - solo) and after ~200 games i still have 60+% WR on it (which pretty much proves that it's imbalanced and there's no riggin on the MM).
I consider myself an average player at best, so again i can't say anything precise about a rigged MM, but even the contents of the patent only regard your placing in a mid-tier tank [since playing a T10 always gets you at the "top", only with different amounts of other T10s], while most "rigged" complaints come from "hell i play 1100 eff and get stuck with 600-eff noobs that don't know about aim time and accuracy", which doesn't exactly corelate with the placing.
Rayxanber, RU server
I think comments are getting out from patent context. What is in patent, is that if you keep winning you get to face higher tiers(if possible by your own tank tier). And when you lose, your battle tier drops. Its real and you can see it working like that if you just start to track your games.
ReplyDeleteIt doesnt stop you from getting high WR%, just means you get against higher stat tanks that still can be driven by monkeys.
"It doesnt stop you from getting high WR%, just means you get against higher stat tanks that still can be driven by monkeys."
DeleteActually the high tier tanks have to be driven by monkeys. They are also affected by the same rules, so if the MM is rigged then those high tier tanks have to have low WR.
Oh, and for me quite often experience is to have monkeys in low tiers with winners in the top.It should be opposite, don't you think?
DeleteOn opposite team it's the same, so I'm not influencing it at all.
For a compagny as big as WG it is vital to include every posibility in their patent. They are not only patenting things they are doing and going to do, they are ofc patenting things that they can/might/perhaps use in the future.
ReplyDeleteThe future (with competition) might force WG to implement these things. And that is why they have already made this patent include all those things,,,, so they CAN include it if the future demands it.
Patents are not only made to protect the owner from coppyers (if that word exist), patents are also used to document the owners right to use an 'invention' if need rise in the future. So better safe than sorry.
Now, what we do not know, is if these things are included in the MM at the moment. It is possible, we can all read it in the patent. But from my understanding of knowledge, we don't know.
My personal feeling: it could be, it does feels like it some times. But me feeling/believing/thinking does not equal knowing.
The majority of arguments for a rigged MM seem to be based on a lack of knowledge of statistics and probablity.
ReplyDeleteAnd they said the won't fix matches, after a player complained he is place in the losing team repeatedly!
ReplyDeletethis looks pretty fixed to me, oh you won too much? how about losing 6 times in a row!
so the only way to increase win ratio is to fight in CW and perhaps TC
This is however unfair, as it doesn't allow a player to evolve on random matches, but on fixed matches!
That whole piece of text talks about being a top tank or not based on losing or winning. That's not really all that bad and goes alongside of other rules about being top tanks only so many times.
ReplyDeleteThis is all irrelevant if you play tier 10s, because you're going to be top every time out. So there you go, no more rigging.
Sure WG actually DOES influence on your performance / wins / looses.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is to prove it. There 2 type of players in WoT: Those who care of their performance and play well and those who are just 50% WR idiots. Those who care of their performance feel there is influence by the RNG / MM because ridicolous bounces / misses. The idiots don't even notice such things.
And here we are: Idiots are like 90% of WoT playerbase and these 10% of intelligent players need to prove something for idiots. That just doesn't work, idiots will stay idiots and you can't teach / proof them anything. Idiot players is fine with all this manipulation, as long as he stays with his 45-50% WR and he does 1k damage from time to time.
So you have seen the light and anyone disagreeing is an idiot. I like your style. This will bring you far in life.
DeleteI hope you understand that you just cut up ~everyone below say...1600eff (or about 60-63% WR) to being "50% WR idiots"...there's a reason why earlier eff-raitings were color-coded for yellow and light green, with anything below 1200 eff being ~55% of the pop.
DeleteEveryone with a normal working brain will reach pink / blue stats in WoT. That's a fact. I don't put much effort in this game neither am i very clever but i am pink. Pink / blue players are even less then 10% i assume but that's not the point.
DeleteThe point is following: If i reach so easily pink xvm-stats, with doing so many mistakes and errors, i can only assume that everyone who's not blue / pink must be a braindead retard. Not even talking of yellow / orange players.
No idea what pink stats are, i still use the very first coloring (light green at 1200 and up, green at 1500 and up), so some numbers and some proof would be great, but taking any player of 1k eff - i'd say that he can do basic stuff (like tank my shots and cover me with his wreck, sure) which is way better than rushing mid on himmel =)
Delete2nd anon
The MM is rigged to make games more exciting for the players, especially players like myself who buy gold. I am a solo pub player, I have never platooned, I have never been in a clan. I noticed before I logged off for the night that I was winning an awful lot of games. I checked the information window and surely enough I had won the last 15 games in a row, the only reason the streak ended was I stopped playing. The odds of winning 15 games in a row if its truely random would be 32,768:1. You'll never convince me it wasn't rigged for me to win.
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ReplyDeleteyes
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to give any hard proof but it is proof enough for me. I grind the same tank an awful lot. I see most of the things described in complaints, and I see them, and I see them. When I first started I was told not to grind the same tank, told to mix it up using several tanks. After ignoring that advice I realize the reason was so I wouldn't notice any "rigging" patterns. It is easy to see and feel when you grind the same tank for thousands of maps. Plain as the nose on your face.
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