tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post7498046563531469885..comments2023-11-05T11:52:06.343+01:00Comments on For the Record: Sorting out the 210mm FerdinandSilentstalkerFTRhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03345351411597408992noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-76013982593561446322013-04-17T17:05:36.366+02:002013-04-17T17:05:36.366+02:00To be fair, the basic concept was sound enough and...To be fair, the basic concept was sound enough and there was a clear demand for such weapon systems (or something similar) - even the Soviets with their ISU-152s sometimes found it necessary to use their high-level 203mm howitzers over open sights against particularly stubborn strongpoints, which was effective but obviously hazardous for the gun crews. And most if not all of these projects were based on existing tank hulls from the start so they wouldn't have been *that* much of an extra burden on the industry.<br /><br />That said they tend to come across as a wee bit over-specialised for their particular niche, all the more so compared to the rather versatile StuGs and SUs.Kellomiesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-68922316666788546332013-04-17T11:58:53.746+02:002013-04-17T11:58:53.746+02:00WG also have confusing names
ingame Bison - "...WG also have confusing names<br />ingame Bison - "15cm sIG 33 auf Panzerkampfwagen I Ausf. B", nickname Sturmpanzer I<br /><br />ingame StPz II - Sturmpanzer II Bison officialyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-6005241161227135122013-04-17T11:04:05.616+02:002013-04-17T11:04:05.616+02:00My problem is not with paper tank designs, but rat...My problem is not with paper tank designs, but rather with WG grossly misunderstanding many of them.<br /><br />I covered artillery extension in an earlier article, using both production and paper tanks and there was no need for such a design.<br /><br />"Sturm-ferdinand" would have made a very interesting armored artillery, with a strong albeit short range punch, while being protected enough to survive pesky t-50-2.<br /><br />Instead, we get an unhistorical "Grille 21(P)" that gives nothing new to the game except for more grinding.Zaraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584728235999957920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-18602323319560724172013-04-17T10:51:34.557+02:002013-04-17T10:51:34.557+02:00I can only say, why are all so upset when WG think...I can only say, why are all so upset when WG thinks about including paper tanks? I for myself consider WoT as an arcade computer game. Just for fun. And WG tries to include historical accuracy, which is good. But cannot be successful in each term.<br /><br />I'm rather happy and interested, if the include such paper tanks, <br />because you can have a feeling how it could looked like if it were ever produced (think about T28 Prot. Image vs. ingame). I like such things, would be rather boring having only real tanks.<br /><br />On the other hand, you can only blame WG IF they say "its historical accurate" when it isn't. Why not having Ferdi with 210mm as arty? (besides i hate arty... another story) If it was mentioned in a sentence like above, I'm fine with introducing it :)KKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-41795336597874389602013-04-17T08:36:00.273+02:002013-04-17T08:36:00.273+02:00Yes, the tank was considered for a breakthrough ro...Yes, the tank was considered for a breakthrough role initially but then refocused on long range tank hunting.Zaraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584728235999957920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-6145501447033726132013-04-17T07:49:30.262+02:002013-04-17T07:49:30.262+02:00That was the result of deeply ingrained WWI mental...That was the result of deeply ingrained WWI mentality in many people at the top.Zaraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584728235999957920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-52150943977420352232013-04-17T04:10:28.085+02:002013-04-17T04:10:28.085+02:00>Someone a bit less insane proposed a vehicle a...>Someone a bit less insane proposed a vehicle armored enough to withstand anything thrown at it by bunker defences and with a large enough gun to crack it.<br />Just slightly less insane, it's still an overspecialised weapon built by a country that was running short of everything, yet another example of German madness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-58793893152763776362013-04-17T00:29:17.550+02:002013-04-17T00:29:17.550+02:00I found the book:
"Am 22.09.42 verlangte Hit...I found the book:<br /><br />"Am 22.09.42 verlangte Hitler den Umbau einer Anzahl von Porsche "Tigern" zu Sturmgeschützen (no Sfl, so no Arty) mit 200mm Stirnpanzerung. Sie sollten mit der 8,8 cm L/70 Kannone bestückt werden. Ferner sollte die Möglichkeit des Einbaus eines 21cm Beutemörsers untersucht werden. Wanne und Decke sollten dabei verstärkt werden. Hitler war damit einverstanden, daß die Panzerbleche Marinebeständen entnommen würden. Der Befehl zum Umbau in ein Sturmgeschütz ohne Turm wurde vom OKW offiziell am 26.9.42 geben. Am 14.10.42 erklärte Hitler, daß, sollte sich das schwere Infrantiegeschütz auf dem Panzer IV Fahrgestell unterbringen lassen die Notwendigkeit eines Strumgeschgützes auf Porsche Tiger mit der langen 8,8 cm Kannone bzw. dem 21 cm Mörser nicht mehr im früheren maße geben sei." <br /><br />http://s14.directupload.net/images/130417/mffkeo5o.png<br /><br /><br />"On 22.09.42 Hitler demanded the conversion of a number of Porsche "Tigers" to assault guns [no Sfl, so no Arty] with 200mm frontal armor. They should be equipped with the 8.8 cm L/70 Kannone. Also, the possibility of installing a 21cm "loot"/"spoil" mortar should be investigated. Hull, top and bottom of the tank should be further strengthened. Hitler had agreed, that the armor plates could be taken from marine stocks. The command for rebuilding the Porsch Tiger into an assault guns without tower was passed from OKW officially on 26.09.42. In 14.10.42 Hitler declared that, if the heavy Infrantiegeschütz can be accommodated on the Panzer IV chassis, then the need for a Strumgeschgützes on Porsche Tiger with the long 8.8 cm Kannone or the 21 cm mortar was no more necessary (as it was in the past)."<br /><br /><br /><br />So no arty, No GW.... just an idea about a Strumgeschütz.<br /><br /><br />Your Staufenwassermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07985414518803813409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-51837673146452508362013-04-17T00:06:42.809+02:002013-04-17T00:06:42.809+02:00So, basically what it should look like is somethin...So, basically what it should look like is something similar to the StuG serie, which, if I'm not wrong, went from a defences destroyer purpose, to also a tank destroyer purpose, or howitzer support, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-57741996679694123622013-04-16T23:16:29.957+02:002013-04-16T23:16:29.957+02:00Useless, perhaps.
Hilariously entertaining, defin...Useless, perhaps.<br /><br />Hilariously entertaining, definitely.Zambonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04554701832249354059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-69393127760063398492013-04-16T22:56:30.411+02:002013-04-16T22:56:30.411+02:00I added a piece to the article explaining sturmpan...I added a piece to the article explaining sturmpanzer role.<br />BTW, you're the only one here arguing that the 210mm ferdinand would be used as a tank hunter.Zaraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584728235999957920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-78911160782060492042013-04-16T22:16:11.401+02:002013-04-16T22:16:11.401+02:00and you are describing exactly what artillery is d...and you are describing exactly what artillery is doing in this game :) - demolishing strongpoints consisting of those slow yummy heavy tanks, since buildings are indestructible and there are no infantry. <br /><br />as for the nitpicking - you are assuming 200mm out of thin air, really. Porshe Tigers never had a hull of 200mm strong; additional plate was simply bolted, as i am sure you know. this assumption is really a stretch for a vehicle that is never supposed to meet tanks in direct combat. <br /><br />also, what Baer are you speaking about? the napkin drawing that was never built? <br /><br />finally, suggesting this ( french beutemorser pic http://goo.gl/qLPyb )as an anti-tank direct fire gun is just an enormous stretch. <br /><br />but thanks for discussion anyway. <br />/strvAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-38844592440428440432013-04-16T22:13:41.557+02:002013-04-16T22:13:41.557+02:00Nobody is taking issue with the concept but rather...Nobody is taking issue with the concept but rather the implementation.<br />WG basically made a Grille 17/21 copy while instead sources points to something a lot closer to the Ferdinand we have in game.Zaraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584728235999957920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-60288506260466295882013-04-16T22:10:58.681+02:002013-04-16T22:10:58.681+02:00I don't see the issue with a Ferdinand armored...I don't see the issue with a Ferdinand armored howitzer just because it can be used "on the frontline"....tier 2 Bison in game was used to level buildings point blank...lostwingmanhttp://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/user/269128-lostwingman/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-62876086784201113162013-04-16T22:07:57.103+02:002013-04-16T22:07:57.103+02:00Of course.
Take into account however that germans ...Of course.<br />Take into account however that germans did not have a clear definition, with any kind of SPG used by both Panzer and artillery units.Zaraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584728235999957920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-88200703672353059512013-04-16T22:06:39.481+02:002013-04-16T22:06:39.481+02:00Well, the thing is, even IF what you said is true ...Well, the thing is, even IF what you said is true (and the SturmElefant was used for indirect fire), it would still mean the Wargaming GW Elefant is fake. First, there is nothing at all in any reputable sources about prolonging the Porsche chassis, or mounting a thin Grille 17-like superstructure on it.SilentstalkerFTRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03345351411597408992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-59339508891208345522013-04-16T22:06:06.951+02:002013-04-16T22:06:06.951+02:00Germans were in love with HEAT shells, it was a fi...Germans were in love with HEAT shells, it was a fixation of Hitler actually.<br />They even made a 7 ton airborne HEAT bombshell for overly protected targets (which utterly failed operationally as near misses are useless with such a design).<br /><br />I'm NOT assuming 200mm front out of think air btw, this is in line with many similar projects.<br />Do a search for "Sturmpanzer Bar" and you'll see a 305mm "mortar carrier" with sloped 130mm armor, while the one in this article was basically a bigger Sturmpanzer IV.<br /><br />Allow me to reiterate: Those designs were made for an extremely specialized purpose: demolishing strongpoints at short range in city fights.<br />For that you don't need a gun precise at long range, you need something that can shoot a big shell without too much recoil and weight, and that's basically the concept of "mine thrower" that made germans rely on direct fire mortars-howitzers.<br /><br />The struggle at Stalingrad created the need for this niche and they were again used for that purpose later on in Poland.Zaraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584728235999957920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-69544953731673500472013-04-16T22:01:14.957+02:002013-04-16T22:01:14.957+02:00Well put. Same holds for SU/ISU-152, or SU-122
/st...Well put. Same holds for SU/ISU-152, or SU-122<br />/strvAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-4782745703094243352013-04-16T21:58:29.464+02:002013-04-16T21:58:29.464+02:00There is no artillery class. There is a Self Prope...There is no artillery class. There is a Self Propelled Gun class. Technically most TD's fall under this as well though there's enough of those to warrant a separate class. Analogous to the Sturmtiger (P) being a frontline Assault Gun (hence the sturm bit), a StuG is not really a TD either. If I were to argue about misclassing anything at all, I'd rather argue that the StuG is an SPG, than arguing that the Sturmtiger (p) is not an SPG, because it clearly is. <br /><br />SPG's just tend to be used as artillery in WoT, and even that isn't always the case.<br /><br />-ChielScapeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-60878984867034004122013-04-16T21:58:26.202+02:002013-04-16T21:58:26.202+02:00These seem like German machinations based upon SU/...These seem like German machinations based upon SU/ISU (ie: use big HE munitions).Xelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12986606428193670901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-57389222206365928102013-04-16T21:44:00.895+02:002013-04-16T21:44:00.895+02:00@Frank: My point really was that the only tracked ...@Frank: My point really was that the only tracked vehichle that was named 'Sturmmörser' never actually had a mortar installed :)<br /><br />@Zarax: Sorry if my comment sounded offensive, and thanks for the info. To the point, however: neither Guderian, nor any of those poor volkssturmtruppen pho had to use PAWs would ever suggest a mortar as an optimal for direct line of sight primary weapon for a tank; the reasons for that are quite obvious (or are you suggesting a 210mm HEAT shell?). Moreover, assuming out of thin air a 200mm frontal armor for a mortar carrier is a bit of stretch, no? <br />/strvAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-28414884610887555532013-04-16T21:39:00.107+02:002013-04-16T21:39:00.107+02:00I put their "batman sign" for Pasholok, ...I put their "batman sign" for Pasholok, WG tank expert.<br />Maybe one day they will feel like giving a serious reply.Zaraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584728235999957920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-91802426202988534432013-04-16T21:35:05.382+02:002013-04-16T21:35:05.382+02:00If you'd like to read the article again I cite...If you'd like to read the article again I cited the book where that figure came from.<br />It is not confirmed by the most reputed authors.Zaraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584728235999957920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-22857312471673064372013-04-16T21:34:52.984+02:002013-04-16T21:34:52.984+02:00....because random Polish authors know more about .......because random Polish authors know more about German panzers than W.Spielberger?SilentstalkerFTRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03345351411597408992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803236411311363895.post-86524813145486929962013-04-16T21:34:14.110+02:002013-04-16T21:34:14.110+02:00Also, you think the 150mm frontal armor of Sturmti...Also, you think the 150mm frontal armor of Sturmtiger were for decoration?<br />Or the 100mm of Sturmpanzer IV, the 130mm of Sturmpanzer Bar and so on...Zaraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584728235999957920noreply@blogger.com